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I can't help but notice how virtually every PHP "proponent" is arguing how PHP is "not completely terrible", rather than arguing how PHP is "good". That's rathe

I can't help but notice how virtually every PHP "proponent" is arguing how PHP is "not completely terrible", rather than arguing how PHP is "good". That's rather telling.

ThomPete 12y ago
Nice strawman. Thats not at all what people are saying.
- joepie91_ 12y ago
  It's not a strawman; it's what I'm observing from not just this thread, but also other discussions in the past.
krapp 12y ago
I don't understand the reason for the quotes around 'proponent', but it's perfectly reasonable to say that, yes, despite its flaws, PHP is adequate for its purpose. There are valid reasons to choose it, and valid reasons not to. Of course, you could say that about every language, and many do[0]. [0]https://wiki.theory.org/YourLanguageSucks https://wiki.theory.org/YourLanguageSucks
- joepie91_ 12y ago
  I put quotes around "proponent" because it applies to pretty much all arguments I've seen in favour of PHP, not just those of people who try to actively 'promote' it. I couldn't find a more accurate word to use there, really, so I settled for quotes.
phpnode 12y ago
Hello. PHP is good. It is still far faster and easier to put together a website in PHP than any other language. It has enabled millions of people to become web developers. It powers about 90% of the web and best of all it offends language snobs
- joepie91_ 12y ago
  > It is still far faster and easier to put together a website in PHP than any other language. Faster than Node.js + Express? > It has enabled millions of people to become web developers. Factually (probably) correct, but irrelevant to the quality of the language itself. Bit of a pointless argument, as it wasn't the crappiness of PHP that made it popular; it was just the only accessible platform around and happened to be crappy. > It powers about 90% of the web Appeal to popularity, not a valid argument. Says nothing about language quality.
  - phpnode 12y ago
    > Faster than Node.js + Express? Absolutely, yes. Take a newbie and ask them to create a web page using express, then ask them to try in PHP. They are worlds apart in terms of usability and approachability. (I say this as someone who almost exclusively writes in node these days) > it was just the only accessible platform around and happened to be crappy. How can it be crappy if it's the only accessible platform around? An alternative view point is that PHP is the best, most empowering platform, because it's accessible to newcomers, and every other language is crappy in comparison because they have failed to match PHP's accessibility. > Appeal to popularity, not a valid argument. Says nothing about language quality. You seem to be talking about PHP the language. There is no doubt that PHP the language is flawed. That is totally irrelevant. What matters is how effective PHP the ecosystem is, and it is undeniably incredibly effective. That's why people use it, because it is a practical way to get things done. So, if we're talking about PHP the ecosystem, then popularity is absolutely a valid metric here. It's easy to hire for, has tons of libraries etc, this stuff matters a lot more than the associativity of the ternary operator.

I can't help but notice how virtually every PHP "proponent" is arguing how PHP is "not completely terrible", rather than arguing how PHP is "good". That's rather telling.

ThomPete 12y ago

Nice strawman. Thats not at all what people are saying.

joepie91_ 12y ago
It's not a strawman; it's what I'm observing from not just this thread, but also other discussions in the past.

krapp 12y ago

I don't understand the reason for the quotes around 'proponent', but it's perfectly reasonable to say that, yes, despite its flaws, PHP is adequate for its purpose. There are valid reasons to choose it, and valid reasons not to. Of course, you could say that about every language, and many do[0]. [0]https://wiki.theory.org/YourLanguageSucks https://wiki.theory.org/YourLanguageSucks

joepie91_ 12y ago
I put quotes around "proponent" because it applies to pretty much all arguments I've seen in favour of PHP, not just those of people who try to actively 'promote' it. I couldn't find a more accurate word to use there, really, so I settled for quotes.

phpnode 12y ago

Hello. PHP is good. It is still far faster and easier to put together a website in PHP than any other language. It has enabled millions of people to become web developers. It powers about 90% of the web and best of all it offends language snobs

joepie91_ 12y ago
> It is still far faster and easier to put together a website in PHP than any other language. Faster than Node.js + Express? > It has enabled millions of people to become web developers. Factually (probably) correct, but irrelevant to the quality of the language itself. Bit of a pointless argument, as it wasn't the crappiness of PHP that made it popular; it was just the only accessible platform around and happened to be crappy. > It powers about 90% of the web Appeal to popularity, not a valid argument. Says nothing about language quality.
- phpnode 12y ago
  > Faster than Node.js + Express? Absolutely, yes. Take a newbie and ask them to create a web page using express, then ask them to try in PHP. They are worlds apart in terms of usability and approachability. (I say this as someone who almost exclusively writes in node these days) > it was just the only accessible platform around and happened to be crappy. How can it be crappy if it's the only accessible platform around? An alternative view point is that PHP is the best, most empowering platform, because it's accessible to newcomers, and every other language is crappy in comparison because they have failed to match PHP's accessibility. > Appeal to popularity, not a valid argument. Says nothing about language quality. You seem to be talking about PHP the language. There is no doubt that PHP the language is flawed. That is totally irrelevant. What matters is how effective PHP the ecosystem is, and it is undeniably incredibly effective. That's why people use it, because it is a practical way to get things done. So, if we're talking about PHP the ecosystem, then popularity is absolutely a valid metric here. It's easy to hire for, has tons of libraries etc, this stuff matters a lot more than the associativity of the ternary operator.