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The Ripple / Stellar protocol is bad, so this is not a surprise. Ripple was invented before Bitcoin. Ripple/Stellar requires explicit trust, where Bitcoin does

The Ripple / Stellar protocol is bad, so this is not a surprise. Ripple was invented before Bitcoin. Ripple/Stellar requires explicit trust, where Bitcoin does not. Also the distribution was widely known to be gameable (I know many people involved who managed to get free stellar). The only surprising thing is that Stripe and Ravikant invested in a technology which is obviously inferior to Bitcoin. Prof. Mazieré and JedMcCaleb have no significant background in economic research and it shows.

argonaut 12y ago
I don't agree that Stellar is an "obviously inferior" technology. Stellar just makes different tradeoffs. I particularly enjoy this quote from http://adamierymenko.com/decentralization-i-want-to-believe/ http://adamierymenko.com/decentralization-i-want-to-believe/: A centralized alternative to Bitcoin would be a simple SQL database with a schema representing standard double-entry accounting and some meta-data fields. The entire transaction volume of the Bitcoin network could be handled by a Raspberry Pi in a shoebox. Instead, we have a transaction volume of a few hundred thousand database entries a day being handled by a compute cluster comparable to those used to simulate atomic bomb blasts with physically realistic voxel models or probabilistically describe a complete relationship graph for the human proteome.
- drcode 12y ago
  I agree that stellar-like systems might have a role to play in the future, but surely a coin with an incident of corrupted transaction logs is inferior to one without such an incident, all else being equal. EDIT: To those pointing out the 2013 Bitcoin fork, good point. However, in cryptocurrency land, 2013 is ancient history, and I'd argue standards are higher already.
  - moreati 12y ago
    Yes, but note that Bitcoin had a blockchain fork in 2013 http://bitcoinmagazine.com/3668/bitcoin-network-shaken-by-blockchain-fork/ http://bitcoinmagazine.com/3668/bitcoin-network-shaken-by-bl.... Without knowing the details of Stellar's fork I make no comment on the relative severities/merits.
  - kolev 12y ago
    Bitcoin had its incidents in the past as well!
- oafitupa 12y ago
  I agree that Stellar is "obviously inferior". If you want a centralized system, just use your bank, Paypal or whatever. Nobody was claiming that Bitcoin, a distributed system, was more efficient computing than other systems. The whole point of Bitcoin is that nobody controls it. Finding something that is more efficient than Bitcoin, without the decentralization, is plain stupid. I don't need an "expert" telling me that "hurr I could have done that faster with a SQL database".
- Animats 12y ago
  He's right. Read that article. Distributed trust is hard. The problem isn't trust, though; it's easy identity creation. Any voting system will fail if someone can cheaply and easily create new voting identities. Email spam, web spam, and social networking spam all suffer from that problem - email addresses, web sites, and social networking accounts are cheap and easy to create. Bitcoin beats this by giving voting power to whomever spends the most on mining hardware. That works, but at high cost and only because there's a big financial reward for being a big miner. How to limit fake online identity creation? Facebook tried "real names", which semi-worked until they ran into the gay agenda. Google tries to make you tie your whole life into one account, and they can tell if your account doesn't have enough of your life tied in. The credit industry tries to do this by chasing down people who don't pay up, and is reasonably successful, but at high cost. ID by phone number has been tried, as "phone verification". That created a small industry in phony phone numbers. (http://www.sitetruth.com/doc/socialisbadforsearch09.pdf http://www.sitetruth.com/doc/socialisbadforsearch09.pdf) ID by postal address was tried, but there are too many mailbox services. There's no really good solution to this known.
- CyberDildonics 12y ago
  Equating the specialized computation approach to bitcoin's mining as being necessary for decentralized consensus is ridiculous, it is just the path bitcoin chose. Mining algorithms that depend much more on large and fast memory could just as easily work. Also, the benefits of decentralized consensus has benefits the are so vast, the resources it takes to achieve it are miniscule by comparison.
makomk 12y ago
Yeah, people pointed out when Ripple launched that there was no reason to believe its consensus algorithm would reliably reach consensus, and the developers dismissed their concerns. I think someone even demonstrated that certain network topologies would result in a permanent fork in the transaction history, and they dismissed that too. (Stellar was, of course, founded by a couple of the Ripple founders using exactly the same technology they used for Ripple. Also, we're talking about the new "decentralized" Ripple here; there was an older version of Ripple that was centralized but didn't have the same problem, and that's the version that predated Bitcoin.)
- Adlai 12y ago
  Ripple is to Stellar as Bitcoin is to...? My nomination: Dogecoin.
kordless 12y ago
> also the distribution was widely known to be gameable It's fairly obvious we currently have no way to do perfect identity management. It's also fairly obvious you are using it as one-of-your-many ad hominem arguments.
- bachback 12y ago
  Bitcoin does not require "identity management". That is why it works. Ripple/Stellar requires explicit trust - money gets created through obligations. That is also how the fiat money system works. In Bitcoin there is no central authority making press releases.
  - nunyabuizness 12y ago
    >Ripple/Stellar requires explicit trust - money gets created through obligations. Trust is the original currency and was the basis for the very first monies ever invented; monies based on trust are much more empowering than "hard" currencies which always have the effect of disproportionately empowering those who already have money. >That is also how the fiat money system works. The difference is that now, for the first time in history, you get control over your obligations, not banks. BTW your bias is showing.
    - bachback 12y ago
      Exactly the opposite. Soft money through breaches of trust are the problems that Bitcoin solve. That is why Ripple/Stellar is particularly absurd, because we have now solved the problem and these systems don't integrate that knowledge. Ripple Inc printed money for themselves - they reserved 80% of the initial distribution, and changed the money supply (which is why Jed left AFAIK). In the cryptocurrency community nobody takes these projects too seriously. Look at the forums, they are empty, and the feedback on the main forums have always been very negative - for good reasons.
  - kordless 12y ago
    > Bitcoin does not require "identity management". This is a patently false statement.

argonaut 12y ago

I don't agree that Stellar is an "obviously inferior" technology. Stellar just makes different tradeoffs. I particularly enjoy this quote from http://adamierymenko.com/decentralization-i-want-to-believe/ http://adamierymenko.com/decentralization-i-want-to-believe/: A centralized alternative to Bitcoin would be a simple SQL database with a schema representing standard double-entry accounting and some meta-data fields. The entire transaction volume of the Bitcoin network could be handled by a Raspberry Pi in a shoebox. Instead, we have a transaction volume of a few hundred thousand database entries a day being handled by a compute cluster comparable to those used to simulate atomic bomb blasts with physically realistic voxel models or probabilistically describe a complete relationship graph for the human proteome.

drcode 12y ago
I agree that stellar-like systems might have a role to play in the future, but surely a coin with an incident of corrupted transaction logs is inferior to one without such an incident, all else being equal. EDIT: To those pointing out the 2013 Bitcoin fork, good point. However, in cryptocurrency land, 2013 is ancient history, and I'd argue standards are higher already.
- moreati 12y ago
  Yes, but note that Bitcoin had a blockchain fork in 2013 http://bitcoinmagazine.com/3668/bitcoin-network-shaken-by-blockchain-fork/ http://bitcoinmagazine.com/3668/bitcoin-network-shaken-by-bl.... Without knowing the details of Stellar's fork I make no comment on the relative severities/merits.
- kolev 12y ago
  Bitcoin had its incidents in the past as well!
oafitupa 12y ago
I agree that Stellar is "obviously inferior". If you want a centralized system, just use your bank, Paypal or whatever. Nobody was claiming that Bitcoin, a distributed system, was more efficient computing than other systems. The whole point of Bitcoin is that nobody controls it. Finding something that is more efficient than Bitcoin, without the decentralization, is plain stupid. I don't need an "expert" telling me that "hurr I could have done that faster with a SQL database".
Animats 12y ago
He's right. Read that article. Distributed trust is hard. The problem isn't trust, though; it's easy identity creation. Any voting system will fail if someone can cheaply and easily create new voting identities. Email spam, web spam, and social networking spam all suffer from that problem - email addresses, web sites, and social networking accounts are cheap and easy to create. Bitcoin beats this by giving voting power to whomever spends the most on mining hardware. That works, but at high cost and only because there's a big financial reward for being a big miner. How to limit fake online identity creation? Facebook tried "real names", which semi-worked until they ran into the gay agenda. Google tries to make you tie your whole life into one account, and they can tell if your account doesn't have enough of your life tied in. The credit industry tries to do this by chasing down people who don't pay up, and is reasonably successful, but at high cost. ID by phone number has been tried, as "phone verification". That created a small industry in phony phone numbers. (http://www.sitetruth.com/doc/socialisbadforsearch09.pdf http://www.sitetruth.com/doc/socialisbadforsearch09.pdf) ID by postal address was tried, but there are too many mailbox services. There's no really good solution to this known.
CyberDildonics 12y ago
Equating the specialized computation approach to bitcoin's mining as being necessary for decentralized consensus is ridiculous, it is just the path bitcoin chose. Mining algorithms that depend much more on large and fast memory could just as easily work. Also, the benefits of decentralized consensus has benefits the are so vast, the resources it takes to achieve it are miniscule by comparison.

makomk 12y ago

Yeah, people pointed out when Ripple launched that there was no reason to believe its consensus algorithm would reliably reach consensus, and the developers dismissed their concerns. I think someone even demonstrated that certain network topologies would result in a permanent fork in the transaction history, and they dismissed that too. (Stellar was, of course, founded by a couple of the Ripple founders using exactly the same technology they used for Ripple. Also, we're talking about the new "decentralized" Ripple here; there was an older version of Ripple that was centralized but didn't have the same problem, and that's the version that predated Bitcoin.)

Adlai 12y ago
Ripple is to Stellar as Bitcoin is to...? My nomination: Dogecoin.

kordless 12y ago

> also the distribution was widely known to be gameable It's fairly obvious we currently have no way to do perfect identity management. It's also fairly obvious you are using it as one-of-your-many ad hominem arguments.

bachback 12y ago
Bitcoin does not require "identity management". That is why it works. Ripple/Stellar requires explicit trust - money gets created through obligations. That is also how the fiat money system works. In Bitcoin there is no central authority making press releases.
- nunyabuizness 12y ago
  >Ripple/Stellar requires explicit trust - money gets created through obligations. Trust is the original currency and was the basis for the very first monies ever invented; monies based on trust are much more empowering than "hard" currencies which always have the effect of disproportionately empowering those who already have money. >That is also how the fiat money system works. The difference is that now, for the first time in history, you get control over your obligations, not banks. BTW your bias is showing.
  - bachback 12y ago
    Exactly the opposite. Soft money through breaches of trust are the problems that Bitcoin solve. That is why Ripple/Stellar is particularly absurd, because we have now solved the problem and these systems don't integrate that knowledge. Ripple Inc printed money for themselves - they reserved 80% of the initial distribution, and changed the money supply (which is why Jed left AFAIK). In the cryptocurrency community nobody takes these projects too seriously. Look at the forums, they are empty, and the feedback on the main forums have always been very negative - for good reasons.
- kordless 12y ago
  > Bitcoin does not require "identity management". This is a patently false statement.