5 ms·

Not to pick on your girlfriend but I've seen a variant of this phrase so often that I'm kind of baffled: "the lack of clear policies and regulations governing

Not to pick on your girlfriend but I've seen a variant of this phrase so often that I'm kind of baffled: "the lack of clear policies and regulations governing academia is one of its greatest advantages, because it gives your mind space to explore, and expands creative freedom." Are the folks in academia so creatively stunted that they can't find freedom outside of the ivory tower? It seems like such a silly argument.

chatmasta 12y ago
Surely there are opportunities outside of academia that do not restrict you to the 9-5 grind or subject you solely to the whims of "the man." But academia is one of the only options where that kind of freedom comes safely packaged and institutionalized. You get the advantages of prestige without the risk of something like entrepreneurship, which may be another option for finding creative freedom.
- johndcook 12y ago
  Agreed. Academics put up with a lot of crap because they're extremely risk adverse.
  - michaelochurch 12y ago
    Very true. The twisted irony is that the long term risks of academia are devastating. We have a lot more short term job volatility in software, but unless we work for some outlier asshole who torches our reputations, we can usually get new jobs. Academics almost never get fired except at legible points (e.g. tenure review) but when they do, it ruins their lives in a way that most of us have never experienced.
- eli_gottlieb 12y ago
  >You get the advantages of prestige without the risk of something like entrepreneurship, which may be another option for finding creative freedom. Entrepreneurs have to make a profit within 3-5 years. Research almost never will -- but when it does, holy crap!
- tensor 12y ago
  You do not have the luxury of doing serious research in a startup. At best you can do some applied research with a high probability of success. Mostly you just apply research to a given problem area.
- mercer 12y ago
  I left academia because of the politics involved, and opted for a freelancer existence instead. It works very well for me, as I have plenty of time to pursue 'academic' interests. But I do realized I'm very privileged as a developer, where I don't have to spend much time looking for clients and worrying about money. But for those who yearn for freedom, are capable of building websites or web apps, freelancing might be the path you're looking for (at least, for now).
munin 12y ago
well you could go work at google, amazon, facebook, or microsoft if you felt like writing an unending stream of javascript to better serve people ads. there are researchy parts of those companies but getting a job there is a lot like getting any other academic job in terms of competition and number of applicants, so it's effectively academia. what wondrous land do you propose that will support researchers and their desire for a few months out of the year to think about stuff? at most companies, you won't get a few minutes out of the day to do anything other than pack numbers tightly into excel or go to your next standup.
- tdat13 12y ago
  I'm just curious, but your comment suggests to me that it is easy to switch from an academic program to working at google, amazon, facebook, or microsoft. Those jobs require training and experience that academia does not provide. Writing javascript and researching, as an example, topology are very different things. I also have a hard time believing that research at a corporation is effectively academia just because they share a competitive environment. Could you explain further?
  - munin 12y ago
    well, if you're in a good PhD program for computer science, you probably have a really good BS in CS from somewhere with a high GPA and demonstrated work experience in the form of research, which was probably programming. your research probably involves developing some kind of software, if yours doesn't you as a student probably do programming for some other system that is someone else's research. you also work with other people and have deadlines and so on, so a lot of CS "research" is basically a job writing code for money. my impression of research at facebook/google/microsoft is that they generally hire phds and they generally take phd students as interns, so if you drop out of a phd program, you're not working there (in a research role at least). so you have to finish your phd, then compete with everyone else for those jobs, just like postdocs and professor positions. once there, you have to justify your existence / funding the same way that you do as a professor (go ask people at MSR how this is going for them lately).
- quonn 12y ago
tjradcliffe 12y ago
Academics in many fields are very strongly socialized into the belief that nothing outside of academia is worthwhile. It isn't about creativity, it's about culture. They simply can't believe that there is a life worth living outside of the charmed circle.
- tensor 12y ago
  Having moved from academia to industry, industry is everything academics think it is. A lot of arrogant people, a lot of incompetent people, equal or more politics, very few "hard" problems where hard is defined as "I'm not sure if there is a solution to this, or if there is I have no idea when we will be able to find it, if ever." It's not about culture, it's about priorities. Academics are interested in solving hard problems or advancing our collective knowledge, not making a bank account higher, not serving ads, and not entertaining people. Sure, in any large group, there are standout counter examples, but they are the exception, not the rule.
  - skybrian 12y ago
    There are many problems that are known to be solvable in principle (because there's a paper) but in practice are not solved because production-worthy code isn't widely available. For example, the existence of the Paxos paper didn't mean that most organizations could actually use distributed state machines in real life. So how about "write the definitive library for X so that nobody needs to write this code again?" That ought to count for something. If you want to see problems solved for real (not just in principle), maybe you're better off in industry.
    - eli_gottlieb 12y ago
      >So how about "write the definitive library for X so that nobody needs to write this code again?" That ought to count for something. That sounds like a job for the open-source world.

chatmasta 12y ago

Surely there are opportunities outside of academia that do not restrict you to the 9-5 grind or subject you solely to the whims of "the man." But academia is one of the only options where that kind of freedom comes safely packaged and institutionalized. You get the advantages of prestige without the risk of something like entrepreneurship, which may be another option for finding creative freedom.

johndcook 12y ago
Agreed. Academics put up with a lot of crap because they're extremely risk adverse.
- michaelochurch 12y ago
  Very true. The twisted irony is that the long term risks of academia are devastating. We have a lot more short term job volatility in software, but unless we work for some outlier asshole who torches our reputations, we can usually get new jobs. Academics almost never get fired except at legible points (e.g. tenure review) but when they do, it ruins their lives in a way that most of us have never experienced.
eli_gottlieb 12y ago
>You get the advantages of prestige without the risk of something like entrepreneurship, which may be another option for finding creative freedom. Entrepreneurs have to make a profit within 3-5 years. Research almost never will -- but when it does, holy crap!
tensor 12y ago
You do not have the luxury of doing serious research in a startup. At best you can do some applied research with a high probability of success. Mostly you just apply research to a given problem area.
mercer 12y ago
I left academia because of the politics involved, and opted for a freelancer existence instead. It works very well for me, as I have plenty of time to pursue 'academic' interests. But I do realized I'm very privileged as a developer, where I don't have to spend much time looking for clients and worrying about money. But for those who yearn for freedom, are capable of building websites or web apps, freelancing might be the path you're looking for (at least, for now).

munin 12y ago

well you could go work at google, amazon, facebook, or microsoft if you felt like writing an unending stream of javascript to better serve people ads. there are researchy parts of those companies but getting a job there is a lot like getting any other academic job in terms of competition and number of applicants, so it's effectively academia. what wondrous land do you propose that will support researchers and their desire for a few months out of the year to think about stuff? at most companies, you won't get a few minutes out of the day to do anything other than pack numbers tightly into excel or go to your next standup.

tdat13 12y ago
I'm just curious, but your comment suggests to me that it is easy to switch from an academic program to working at google, amazon, facebook, or microsoft. Those jobs require training and experience that academia does not provide. Writing javascript and researching, as an example, topology are very different things. I also have a hard time believing that research at a corporation is effectively academia just because they share a competitive environment. Could you explain further?
- munin 12y ago
  well, if you're in a good PhD program for computer science, you probably have a really good BS in CS from somewhere with a high GPA and demonstrated work experience in the form of research, which was probably programming. your research probably involves developing some kind of software, if yours doesn't you as a student probably do programming for some other system that is someone else's research. you also work with other people and have deadlines and so on, so a lot of CS "research" is basically a job writing code for money. my impression of research at facebook/google/microsoft is that they generally hire phds and they generally take phd students as interns, so if you drop out of a phd program, you're not working there (in a research role at least). so you have to finish your phd, then compete with everyone else for those jobs, just like postdocs and professor positions. once there, you have to justify your existence / funding the same way that you do as a professor (go ask people at MSR how this is going for them lately).
quonn 12y ago

tjradcliffe 12y ago

Academics in many fields are very strongly socialized into the belief that nothing outside of academia is worthwhile. It isn't about creativity, it's about culture. They simply can't believe that there is a life worth living outside of the charmed circle.

tensor 12y ago
Having moved from academia to industry, industry is everything academics think it is. A lot of arrogant people, a lot of incompetent people, equal or more politics, very few "hard" problems where hard is defined as "I'm not sure if there is a solution to this, or if there is I have no idea when we will be able to find it, if ever." It's not about culture, it's about priorities. Academics are interested in solving hard problems or advancing our collective knowledge, not making a bank account higher, not serving ads, and not entertaining people. Sure, in any large group, there are standout counter examples, but they are the exception, not the rule.
- skybrian 12y ago
  There are many problems that are known to be solvable in principle (because there's a paper) but in practice are not solved because production-worthy code isn't widely available. For example, the existence of the Paxos paper didn't mean that most organizations could actually use distributed state machines in real life. So how about "write the definitive library for X so that nobody needs to write this code again?" That ought to count for something. If you want to see problems solved for real (not just in principle), maybe you're better off in industry.
  - eli_gottlieb 12y ago
    >So how about "write the definitive library for X so that nobody needs to write this code again?" That ought to count for something. That sounds like a job for the open-source world.