7 ms·

Very out of topic but, is lena.jpg still acceptable? I mean, tech industry is getting better at inclusion but come on, are we still using that crop from Playboy

Very out of topic but, is lena.jpg still acceptable? I mean, tech industry is getting better at inclusion but come on, are we still using that crop from Playboy?

CamperBob2 12y ago
Considering that Lenna herself is fine with it, I'd say so. (Unless you want to deny a woman the right to permit the use of her own body for aesthetic, erotic, or academic purposes, which is the logical if ironic outcome of some schools of feminism.) The problem with the Lenna imagery isn't political correctness, it's the fact that it's a crappy scan from a magazine that always had crappy photography to begin with.
- j2kun 12y ago
  The "fine" thing would be to let Lena use photographs of herself in her own work. The problem is that women in science cannot read a paper on image processing without being reminded that it's a boy's club.
  - CamperBob2 12y ago
    The problem is that women in science cannot read a paper on image processing without being reminded that it's a boy's club. I find this attitude far more patronizing than any conceivable choice of test imagery in a graphics research project. Suggest reading this before posting anything else about the delicate sensibilities of "women in science": http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/07/magazine/my-great-great-aunt-discovered-francium-and-it-killed-her.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/07/magazine/my-great-great-au... Do you think any of those women would have spared a half-second's thought about this issue? Somehow, I don't think so. I think they were too busy doing science.
    - j2kun 12y ago
      I'm sure they do, because I can point to them speaking up about it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenna#Controversy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenna#Controversy I'm not saying all women are crippled by it, because they have to deal with such nonsense while walking down the street every day. But can't we as scientists strive to improve the status quo?
      - CamperBob2 12y ago
        (Shrug) I can point to outraged people "speaking up" about everything from global warming to Jar-Jar Binks. It doesn't prove much, except that some people enjoy a good bout of outrage. The scientists in the article I linked, on the other hand, aren't speaking up about anything, because they're all dead.
        j2kun 12y ago
        You're implying that because the women you picked didn't speak up and just did their work, that somehow that is the model all women should follow (because Science, apparently). Yet you provide no evidence that they were not affected by attitudes toward women. Just because they did not speak up does not imply there were no negative effects of contemporary attitudes toward women. On the other hand, I have evidence that researchers are affected by it.
        CamperBob2 12y ago
        Yet you provide no evidence that they were not affected by attitudes toward women. The New York Times Magazine article is pretty long, it'll take you a few minutes to read it. I'll wait. Short version: they suffered real discrimination, which you've diminished by comparing it to the use of Lenna.jpg in a graphics project.
        j2kun 12y ago
        Fine, I didn't read it. What is your point? That just because something is worse for one person that we should ignore problems affecting another? That someone else has suffered in the past is not a reason to give up improving the status quo today.
- frontsideair 12y ago
  > Unless you want to deny a woman the right to permit Not doing something you are permitted to do is somehow denying their right to permit? It's nice of her permitting the use, however her permission doesn't force us to use it. By the same logic, it would be perfectly okay use goatse image if the guy permitted it, right?
  - CamperBob2 12y ago
    By the same logic, it would be perfectly okay use goatse image if the guy permitted it, right? If the ability to represent the goatse image were a critical part of the evaluation process for a compression algorithm, then yes. However, we evolved to recognize and respond to subtle features in human faces, not human colons. So, no, goatse would not be an appropriate reference image.
    - frontsideair 12y ago
      If her face is the only face that is critical to the image compression analysis, yes, you are completely right. I have a hard time understanding the knee jerk reaction to the change and the willingness to maintain the status quo. We have nothing to lose if the image is swapped with one that is less ostracizing --which is something Mozilla did in the past. Why defend it?
      - CamperBob2 12y ago
        Technically, the Lenna scan is indeed a bad reference image for numerous reasons, such as being blurry, heavily quantized, and composed of various shades of magenta and purple. Its value is more or less entirely nostalgic. So it wouldn't be worth defending at all, if it weren't being attacked on grounds I strongly disagree with, by people who I believe shouldn't gain any more influence over our culture than they already have.
        frontsideair 12y ago
        Thanks for clarifying. I can relate, since I would also defend anything if it was criticized by people I didn't like. ...no wait, I wouldn't.
paulannesley 12y ago
I briefly wondered the same thing. Tradition would probably be a poor argument for continuing to use it. But being able to directly compare the results with the lena.jpg results throughout its history might be valuable?
jjcm 12y ago
I'd say it has enough historical significance to still be acceptable. Consider this: every image compression format out there has an example of their work done on the Lena image. The source code for various compression algorithms may have been lost, but the encoded Lena results for that compression algorithm may very well still exist. This means we can compare between compression algorithms of the past quite easily. We dont have to dig up old source code and find hardware that will run it to compare output - we can simply provide the same input that they had. Regarding the image itself, it's not even a good test image. There are far better images out there that test the robustness of image compression, but those test images haven't been ran though every image processing algorithm since the 1973. Should we change default test images? Yes, but Lena should still be used as well. The historical data it provides is invaluable.
- frontsideair 12y ago
  > I'd say it has enough historical significance to still be acceptable. This sounds a lot like Redskins argument. > The source code for various compression algorithms may have been lost, but the encoded Lena results for that compression algorithm may very well still exist. We need to compare a new algorithm to an obsolete one where we don't even have the source code and this is beneficial... how? By the way, the image is remastered in 2013 so none of this is relevant anymore: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenna#Remastering http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenna#Remastering
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zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 12y ago
Just one thought: If some woman (or man, or whatever, really) used a similar crop from playgirl in a paper ... Yeah, sure, from a historical perspective, the situation is not exactly symmetrical, and if it helps with normalizing the situation, maybe Lenna should be banished ... but then again, I would think that if the atmosphere is right otherwise, I doubt anyone would really be bothered by the use of mildly erotic pictures where there is consent from the person in the picture?

Very out of topic but, is lena.jpg still acceptable? I mean, tech industry is getting better at inclusion but come on, are we still using that crop from Playboy?

CamperBob2 12y ago

Considering that Lenna herself is fine with it, I'd say so. (Unless you want to deny a woman the right to permit the use of her own body for aesthetic, erotic, or academic purposes, which is the logical if ironic outcome of some schools of feminism.) The problem with the Lenna imagery isn't political correctness, it's the fact that it's a crappy scan from a magazine that always had crappy photography to begin with.

j2kun 12y ago
The "fine" thing would be to let Lena use photographs of herself in her own work. The problem is that women in science cannot read a paper on image processing without being reminded that it's a boy's club.
- CamperBob2 12y ago
  The problem is that women in science cannot read a paper on image processing without being reminded that it's a boy's club. I find this attitude far more patronizing than any conceivable choice of test imagery in a graphics research project. Suggest reading this before posting anything else about the delicate sensibilities of "women in science": http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/07/magazine/my-great-great-aunt-discovered-francium-and-it-killed-her.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/07/magazine/my-great-great-au... Do you think any of those women would have spared a half-second's thought about this issue? Somehow, I don't think so. I think they were too busy doing science.
  - j2kun 12y ago
    I'm sure they do, because I can point to them speaking up about it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenna#Controversy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenna#Controversy I'm not saying all women are crippled by it, because they have to deal with such nonsense while walking down the street every day. But can't we as scientists strive to improve the status quo?
    - CamperBob2 12y ago
      (Shrug) I can point to outraged people "speaking up" about everything from global warming to Jar-Jar Binks. It doesn't prove much, except that some people enjoy a good bout of outrage. The scientists in the article I linked, on the other hand, aren't speaking up about anything, because they're all dead.
      - j2kun 12y ago
        You're implying that because the women you picked didn't speak up and just did their work, that somehow that is the model all women should follow (because Science, apparently). Yet you provide no evidence that they were not affected by attitudes toward women. Just because they did not speak up does not imply there were no negative effects of contemporary attitudes toward women. On the other hand, I have evidence that researchers are affected by it.
        CamperBob2 12y ago
        Yet you provide no evidence that they were not affected by attitudes toward women. The New York Times Magazine article is pretty long, it'll take you a few minutes to read it. I'll wait. Short version: they suffered real discrimination, which you've diminished by comparing it to the use of Lenna.jpg in a graphics project.
        j2kun 12y ago
        Fine, I didn't read it. What is your point? That just because something is worse for one person that we should ignore problems affecting another? That someone else has suffered in the past is not a reason to give up improving the status quo today.
frontsideair 12y ago
> Unless you want to deny a woman the right to permit Not doing something you are permitted to do is somehow denying their right to permit? It's nice of her permitting the use, however her permission doesn't force us to use it. By the same logic, it would be perfectly okay use goatse image if the guy permitted it, right?
- CamperBob2 12y ago
  By the same logic, it would be perfectly okay use goatse image if the guy permitted it, right? If the ability to represent the goatse image were a critical part of the evaluation process for a compression algorithm, then yes. However, we evolved to recognize and respond to subtle features in human faces, not human colons. So, no, goatse would not be an appropriate reference image.
  - frontsideair 12y ago
    If her face is the only face that is critical to the image compression analysis, yes, you are completely right. I have a hard time understanding the knee jerk reaction to the change and the willingness to maintain the status quo. We have nothing to lose if the image is swapped with one that is less ostracizing --which is something Mozilla did in the past. Why defend it?
    - CamperBob2 12y ago
      Technically, the Lenna scan is indeed a bad reference image for numerous reasons, such as being blurry, heavily quantized, and composed of various shades of magenta and purple. Its value is more or less entirely nostalgic. So it wouldn't be worth defending at all, if it weren't being attacked on grounds I strongly disagree with, by people who I believe shouldn't gain any more influence over our culture than they already have.
      - frontsideair 12y ago
        Thanks for clarifying. I can relate, since I would also defend anything if it was criticized by people I didn't like. ...no wait, I wouldn't.

paulannesley 12y ago

I briefly wondered the same thing. Tradition would probably be a poor argument for continuing to use it. But being able to directly compare the results with the lena.jpg results throughout its history might be valuable?

jjcm 12y ago

I'd say it has enough historical significance to still be acceptable. Consider this: every image compression format out there has an example of their work done on the Lena image. The source code for various compression algorithms may have been lost, but the encoded Lena results for that compression algorithm may very well still exist. This means we can compare between compression algorithms of the past quite easily. We dont have to dig up old source code and find hardware that will run it to compare output - we can simply provide the same input that they had. Regarding the image itself, it's not even a good test image. There are far better images out there that test the robustness of image compression, but those test images haven't been ran though every image processing algorithm since the 1973. Should we change default test images? Yes, but Lena should still be used as well. The historical data it provides is invaluable.

frontsideair 12y ago
> I'd say it has enough historical significance to still be acceptable. This sounds a lot like Redskins argument. > The source code for various compression algorithms may have been lost, but the encoded Lena results for that compression algorithm may very well still exist. We need to compare a new algorithm to an obsolete one where we don't even have the source code and this is beneficial... how? By the way, the image is remastered in 2013 so none of this is relevant anymore: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenna#Remastering http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenna#Remastering

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zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 12y ago

Just one thought: If some woman (or man, or whatever, really) used a similar crop from playgirl in a paper ... Yeah, sure, from a historical perspective, the situation is not exactly symmetrical, and if it helps with normalizing the situation, maybe Lenna should be banished ... but then again, I would think that if the atmosphere is right otherwise, I doubt anyone would really be bothered by the use of mildly erotic pictures where there is consent from the person in the picture?