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It's not only WebKit, but also the Javascript engine and to make matters worse, on iOS last time I checked the web view that you could use in apps wasn't using

It's not only WebKit, but also the Javascript engine and to make matters worse, on iOS last time I checked the web view that you could use in apps wasn't using the same Javascript engine that Safari was using, which means that an alternative browser is slower than Safari by default. From what I've been hearing, lately developers can use the same engine as Safari inside those web views, but the functionality is still buggy. And this matters, because the main features that browsers compete on is speed and new features (in HTML5 and Javascript). This is what made people switch to Chrome, making it gain a whooping 40% (or is it 50%) in market share. This is also what made Firefox gain market share from IExplorer. And if your browser is slower than the default one, then you cannot compete with that default. If your browser cannot be a platform (for add-ons or apps, like what Firefox is doing on Android), then you cannot compete with the default. Chrome on iOS is only a shadow of what it is on the desktop. And Firefox on Android is the only one that allows me to use useful add-ons, such as AdBlock Plus, HTTPS Everywhere and LastPass. Do you know how awesome that is? And this doesn't work on iOS (i.e. having add-ons) because of Apple's restrictions. And yes, I'm even rooting for Gekko (instead of WebKit), because it is Firefox that brought us Asm.js [1], I even bought the Humble Mozilla Bundle [2] and they made everybody optimize for it, including Microsoft. And now they are working on SIMD.js as well [3]. I received an iPhone 6 as a gift 3 weeks ago and I sold it - yes it's nice, but it doesn't run Firefox and apparently Apple kicked VLC out of the app store as well. And personally I couldn't picture myself living with such restrictions so I sold it - now I'm waiting for my Nexus 6 to arrive :-) [1] http://asmjs.org/ http://asmjs.org/ [2] https://blog.mozilla.org/blog/2014/10/14/play-awesome-indie-games-directly-in-firefox-including-the-award-winning-ftl/ https://blog.mozilla.org/blog/2014/10/14/play-awesome-indie-... [3] https://hacks.mozilla.org/2014/10/introducing-simd-js/ https://hacks.mozilla.org/2014/10/introducing-simd-js/

gress 12y ago
Android is vastly less secure than iOS, which is why there are millions of android devices participating in botnets, and millions of users having money stolen from them by malware on Android. Apple is cautious about allowing their consumer products to run downloaded code for this reason - it provides a clear and undeniable benefit for customers. Of course some people want to trade this benefit for the benefit of more flexibility. That is one of the reasons for choosing Android. Pretending that the iOS approach is just about stifling competition is ignoring the facts. Also your claim that Chrome uptake was just about speed is unsupported. It was installed as part of the flash installer on many people's machines, and pushed on the Google homepage. Some people may have chose it for technical reasons but many people did so because it was marketed heavily, or installed with another product.
- JohnTHaller 12y ago
  The Android and iOS devices running malware are nearly all doing so due to the built-in security measures being disabled by the end user to enable the addition of apps not from their respective app stores. Specifically, Android devices with side-loading enabled or iOS devices that are jailbroken. Pirated versions of paid apps and games will often contain malware. There are numerous examples for both platforms. As to the numbers, there are a lot more Android phones where the user has enabled side-loading or rooted than there are iOS devices that are jailbroken. Anecdotally, I don't know a single person in real life on either iOS or on Android that's gotten malware. Anti-competitive behavior to keep apps that compete for Apple's customer data and money off of iOS provides a clear and undeniable benefit for Apple. It's not like this is unusual or new behavior for them: http://www.digitaltrends.com/music/apple-deleted-non-itunes-music-off-ipods-for-two-years-answers-for-it-in-court/ http://www.digitaltrends.com/music/apple-deleted-non-itunes-...
  - gress 12y ago
    You have proven the point. If Apple allowed sideloading or rooting, nobody would accuse them of anti-competitive behavior. Therefore you are asserting that what you are calling 'anti-competitive' behavior is precisely what limits malware on iOS vs Android. Bear in mind that all of the major vendors, including Google have been convicted of wrongdoing and anti-competitive behavior, so linking to breathless headlines demonstrates nothing.
JohnTHaller 12y ago
Apparently on iOS 8, Apple finally ended the anti-competitive restriction that made all Safari skin apps (aka "browsers" on iOS) slower than Safari itself.
- gress 12y ago
  Or, more sanely put, Apple's multi-year investment in engineering allowed WebKit to be secured sufficiently for all apps to benefit from the Jit. All this talk of anti-competitive restrictions doesn't reflect the reality of engineering for security.
  - JohnTHaller 12y ago
    Put another way: iOS' app sandbox is so poorly made it can't handle any app that includes a scripting engine. (I'm kidding, of course) Realistically, Apple is about as anti-competitive as they come behavior-wise. And the 'engineering for security' bit has more to do with their marketing than their actual technology.
    - gress 12y ago
      Given all the malware on Android, including giant botnets, it would seem that poor sandboxes are the current state of the art. The difference is that Apple is willing to recognize this and protect their customers from the shortcomings. Android's million node botnets and thousands of pieces of malware are not Apple's marketing. They are the reality of what Apple's policy has succeeded in protecting it's customers from.
      - JohnTHaller 12y ago
        It's funny that you keep referring to 'all the malware' on Android but not referring to the malware on iOS. It exists on both. Even botnets exist on iOS thanks to the automatic tools used to exploit the same iOS vulnerabilities used to jailbreak enabling drive-by installs of malware on iOS devices. There was only one very large botnet ('up to' a million nodes) on Android and it wasn't on proper Android. It was on Android in China. So, no Google Play store and proper Android setup like you get on every phone in the US, Europe, etc. The botnet spread through... you guessed it... stolen games on unofficial 'app stores' of pirated software. Comparing Apples to Apples, Google Play Android devices and un-jailbroken iOS devices, malware is virtually non-existent.

gress 12y ago

Android is vastly less secure than iOS, which is why there are millions of android devices participating in botnets, and millions of users having money stolen from them by malware on Android. Apple is cautious about allowing their consumer products to run downloaded code for this reason - it provides a clear and undeniable benefit for customers. Of course some people want to trade this benefit for the benefit of more flexibility. That is one of the reasons for choosing Android. Pretending that the iOS approach is just about stifling competition is ignoring the facts. Also your claim that Chrome uptake was just about speed is unsupported. It was installed as part of the flash installer on many people's machines, and pushed on the Google homepage. Some people may have chose it for technical reasons but many people did so because it was marketed heavily, or installed with another product.

JohnTHaller 12y ago
The Android and iOS devices running malware are nearly all doing so due to the built-in security measures being disabled by the end user to enable the addition of apps not from their respective app stores. Specifically, Android devices with side-loading enabled or iOS devices that are jailbroken. Pirated versions of paid apps and games will often contain malware. There are numerous examples for both platforms. As to the numbers, there are a lot more Android phones where the user has enabled side-loading or rooted than there are iOS devices that are jailbroken. Anecdotally, I don't know a single person in real life on either iOS or on Android that's gotten malware. Anti-competitive behavior to keep apps that compete for Apple's customer data and money off of iOS provides a clear and undeniable benefit for Apple. It's not like this is unusual or new behavior for them: http://www.digitaltrends.com/music/apple-deleted-non-itunes-music-off-ipods-for-two-years-answers-for-it-in-court/ http://www.digitaltrends.com/music/apple-deleted-non-itunes-...
- gress 12y ago
  You have proven the point. If Apple allowed sideloading or rooting, nobody would accuse them of anti-competitive behavior. Therefore you are asserting that what you are calling 'anti-competitive' behavior is precisely what limits malware on iOS vs Android. Bear in mind that all of the major vendors, including Google have been convicted of wrongdoing and anti-competitive behavior, so linking to breathless headlines demonstrates nothing.

JohnTHaller 12y ago

Apparently on iOS 8, Apple finally ended the anti-competitive restriction that made all Safari skin apps (aka "browsers" on iOS) slower than Safari itself.

gress 12y ago
Or, more sanely put, Apple's multi-year investment in engineering allowed WebKit to be secured sufficiently for all apps to benefit from the Jit. All this talk of anti-competitive restrictions doesn't reflect the reality of engineering for security.
- JohnTHaller 12y ago
  Put another way: iOS' app sandbox is so poorly made it can't handle any app that includes a scripting engine. (I'm kidding, of course) Realistically, Apple is about as anti-competitive as they come behavior-wise. And the 'engineering for security' bit has more to do with their marketing than their actual technology.
  - gress 12y ago
    Given all the malware on Android, including giant botnets, it would seem that poor sandboxes are the current state of the art. The difference is that Apple is willing to recognize this and protect their customers from the shortcomings. Android's million node botnets and thousands of pieces of malware are not Apple's marketing. They are the reality of what Apple's policy has succeeded in protecting it's customers from.
    - JohnTHaller 12y ago
      It's funny that you keep referring to 'all the malware' on Android but not referring to the malware on iOS. It exists on both. Even botnets exist on iOS thanks to the automatic tools used to exploit the same iOS vulnerabilities used to jailbreak enabling drive-by installs of malware on iOS devices. There was only one very large botnet ('up to' a million nodes) on Android and it wasn't on proper Android. It was on Android in China. So, no Google Play store and proper Android setup like you get on every phone in the US, Europe, etc. The botnet spread through... you guessed it... stolen games on unofficial 'app stores' of pirated software. Comparing Apples to Apples, Google Play Android devices and un-jailbroken iOS devices, malware is virtually non-existent.