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I installed a 10kw system ~15 months ago on my 3600sq ft house. Average electricity costs was ~$6k/year before the panels, the first year on solar to total cos

I installed a 10kw system ~15 months ago on my 3600sq ft house. Average electricity costs was ~$6k/year before the panels, the first year on solar to total cost for the year was $300. That $300 worth of electricity for the year is before I've been able to talk the wife in to replacing our incandescent bulbs, swapped out our old pool pump, etc etc - I could easily get that down to below 0 with a small investment in bulbs. So in my case at least, it was trivially easy to get to a net-zero usage. A few $$ notes - the system cost $37k, I got 11.1k of that in a tax credit from the feds, so my net cost was 26k. I'm saving 5.7k/yr, which means my break even point for the system is 5 years. In 5 freaking years I'm making money from my solar panels! And I don't have to write a $500 check to PG&E every month. It's a beautiful thing... BTW - the above numbers (plus my severe aversion to debt) are why I'm so against solar leases. If we had a solar lease, we'd still be stuck with monthly payments, would have trouble selling our house, and would be stuck for 20 years.

Pxtl 12y ago
Where you located? Are we talking Texas or Michigan?
chdir 12y ago
How many units does $500 fetch where you live? Would be curious to know a breakdown of the bigger portion of the pie in those units.
mrfusion 12y ago
$6K/year sounds really high no? My neighbor pays $100-150/month for a 3200 sqft house.
- jere 12y ago
  Yea a $500 per month electricity bill sounds steep to me. When my bill hit $400 in the winter, I realized I had a problem with my water heater.
- HeyLaughingBoy 12y ago
  That's what I thought. My house is about the same size as his and completely exposed to weather. While I live in not-so-balmy Minnesota, it does get well above 90F and humid regularly in summer. Not to mention that the only non-electric heating appliance is the furnace. I get irritable if my bill hits $250, I'd be freaking out at an average of $500/month.
- Igglyboo 12y ago
  He says he has a pool and if he lives in california then that pump is probably running all year, probably adds a few hundred a month to his bill.
- ryanhuff 12y ago
  How much power do you consume a month? Pool heaters can really kill your electric bill.
- Shivetya 12y ago
  Welcome to a fully regulated rate structure, throw in the combined weight of years and years of "its for the environment" and the costs go to the people who have the least voice and for many the least ability to pay. The have so regulated pricing and punitive structures into service there that they have to have assistance programs just to alleviate the burden on middle income and lower consumers.
hga 12y ago
Where do you live? Where I live, in SW Missouri, capital and maintenance costs might be higher due to weather (e.g. high winds, hail), and it would be useful during the summer---which the electric company would be generally thankful for, less $$$ peaking power needed---but much less so in fall and winter when it's frequently overcast. Also, if you live in a place with high electricity rates, like California, the case elsewhere is less compelling. I probably pay on the order of 1/2 of your savings for the total power to handle a building that's almost certainly bigger and thirstier than your's (numbers on request).
crdoconnor 12y ago
Hawaii?
pkaye 12y ago
Where do you live? Do you use electricity for heating? I'm in California and for a 1500 sf house, it costs us roughly $600 in electricity and $600 is gas per year. This actually an old house with some insulation. I think it would be more efficient for me to improve the insulation and water heater/furnace before even considering solar panels. I wish they would subsidize these other improvements as much as solar panels.
- djrogers 12y ago
  I'm in an unfortunate area of California where my tier usage is tied to parts of the bay area, but the weather is closer to the central valley. Our AC and pool pump are big parts of that $6k/year usage, and while AC is a luxury, when it's 105* for a week or two straight and you've got little kids around, it sure is nice. There are also 2 other factors that feed in to our electrical costs - I work from home, and we have 2 little kids. That means our home doesn't get to shut down during the day. AC, fridge door opening, lights, etc., it all adds up when 4 people live in a house 24/7 instead of being gone during the hottest parts of the day.
  - ensignavenger 12y ago
    You mention the AC and pool pump- and then state that the AC is a luxury :)
- maratd 12y ago
  I'm in NJ and my numbers are the same. I think it's because we use gas for heating/cooking/hot water. If everything was electric, I can imagine things costing almost twice as much, if not more.
- Roboprog 12y ago
  Like "djrogers", I also live under (let's name names) PG&E and their "infernal" tiered pricing. Try paying 30 to 40 cents a kW/h, and also working from home with kids running around during the summer. I live in the Sacramento area, but outside of "SMUD" coverage, so I have to have PG&E. When it is about 100 degrees +/- for 3 months solid, A/C is "life support", not a convenience. $400/month electric bill, very typical for summer.
baddox 12y ago
How long are your panels expected to last, and how much maintenance do they require? Is the 5 year break even point pretty much guaranteed, and considering those things?
- djrogers 12y ago
  They've got 20yr warranties, and require zero maintenance where I live. If you have more rain/snow than I get, or perhaps salt spray etc, you may need to do some cleaning. Once every few months the monitoring doohickey needs a reboot, but the panels work with or without that. For my personal situation, unless PG&E reduces their power rates over the next 5 years, I'll absolutely hit that break-even point. Panel production will degrade over time - the warranty covers something like 3% the first year, and 1% every year after that. So at 5 years I will have less than an 8% reduction in output from the panels. That 8% will be made up by that time with LED bulbs, a variable speed pool pump, etc. Heck, right now out of the ~30 ceiling cans in my house, only my office (4) and front porch (3) are LED. The rest are full 60W sucking incandescent bulbs. The chandeliers are also 60W bulbs too, accounting for another dozen or so lights that are on quite frequently. What can I say - my wife hates CFLs and barely tolerates LEDs.
  - baddox 12y ago
    You mentioned the reduction in your energy bill, but do you happen to track how much of that comes from selling back to the grid and how much comes from you using your solar power directly? If you're generating 10kW a few hours each day, I would guess that's the only time you're selling back. Would there be any point in an energy storage system for you? I've always had this fanciful notion of having a solar array and building an underground flywheel for storage, but only because I'm riveted by flywheels. I haven't looked into the ROI of CFLs or LEDs vs. incandescents in a while. I imagine they have improved. Lately, I've even seen some LED bulbs in stores that don't look horrible. Of course, I would buy them anyway just to save time changing bulbs!
    - secabeen 12y ago
      I have a similar system, and I sell back for about 80% of daylight hours. That credit covers all of my other needs in the summer (and then some), and about half of my usage during the winter months. When you originally design the system, you use current rates and policies to create a system that generates at most a net zero usage.
g8oz 12y ago
Wholesale panels are $500 a kW. That's a lot of markup you had to pay. Definitely much room for improvement on margins.
- secabeen 12y ago
  Labor is a big cost, as well as permitting and the like. It's certainly a business with a lot of profit in it now. As long as the marginal rates of power are high, it's still break-even for the customer fast enough that they don't mind. The feds and the utilities pay the costs.

Pxtl 12y ago

Where you located? Are we talking Texas or Michigan?

chdir 12y ago

How many units does $500 fetch where you live? Would be curious to know a breakdown of the bigger portion of the pie in those units.

mrfusion 12y ago

$6K/year sounds really high no? My neighbor pays $100-150/month for a 3200 sqft house.

jere 12y ago
Yea a $500 per month electricity bill sounds steep to me. When my bill hit $400 in the winter, I realized I had a problem with my water heater.
HeyLaughingBoy 12y ago
That's what I thought. My house is about the same size as his and completely exposed to weather. While I live in not-so-balmy Minnesota, it does get well above 90F and humid regularly in summer. Not to mention that the only non-electric heating appliance is the furnace. I get irritable if my bill hits $250, I'd be freaking out at an average of $500/month.
Igglyboo 12y ago
He says he has a pool and if he lives in california then that pump is probably running all year, probably adds a few hundred a month to his bill.
ryanhuff 12y ago
How much power do you consume a month? Pool heaters can really kill your electric bill.
Shivetya 12y ago
Welcome to a fully regulated rate structure, throw in the combined weight of years and years of "its for the environment" and the costs go to the people who have the least voice and for many the least ability to pay. The have so regulated pricing and punitive structures into service there that they have to have assistance programs just to alleviate the burden on middle income and lower consumers.

hga 12y ago

Where do you live? Where I live, in SW Missouri, capital and maintenance costs might be higher due to weather (e.g. high winds, hail), and it would be useful during the summer---which the electric company would be generally thankful for, less $$$ peaking power needed---but much less so in fall and winter when it's frequently overcast. Also, if you live in a place with high electricity rates, like California, the case elsewhere is less compelling. I probably pay on the order of 1/2 of your savings for the total power to handle a building that's almost certainly bigger and thirstier than your's (numbers on request).

crdoconnor 12y ago

Hawaii?

pkaye 12y ago

Where do you live? Do you use electricity for heating? I'm in California and for a 1500 sf house, it costs us roughly $600 in electricity and $600 is gas per year. This actually an old house with some insulation. I think it would be more efficient for me to improve the insulation and water heater/furnace before even considering solar panels. I wish they would subsidize these other improvements as much as solar panels.

djrogers 12y ago
I'm in an unfortunate area of California where my tier usage is tied to parts of the bay area, but the weather is closer to the central valley. Our AC and pool pump are big parts of that $6k/year usage, and while AC is a luxury, when it's 105* for a week or two straight and you've got little kids around, it sure is nice. There are also 2 other factors that feed in to our electrical costs - I work from home, and we have 2 little kids. That means our home doesn't get to shut down during the day. AC, fridge door opening, lights, etc., it all adds up when 4 people live in a house 24/7 instead of being gone during the hottest parts of the day.
- ensignavenger 12y ago
  You mention the AC and pool pump- and then state that the AC is a luxury :)
maratd 12y ago
I'm in NJ and my numbers are the same. I think it's because we use gas for heating/cooking/hot water. If everything was electric, I can imagine things costing almost twice as much, if not more.
Roboprog 12y ago
Like "djrogers", I also live under (let's name names) PG&E and their "infernal" tiered pricing. Try paying 30 to 40 cents a kW/h, and also working from home with kids running around during the summer. I live in the Sacramento area, but outside of "SMUD" coverage, so I have to have PG&E. When it is about 100 degrees +/- for 3 months solid, A/C is "life support", not a convenience. $400/month electric bill, very typical for summer.

baddox 12y ago

How long are your panels expected to last, and how much maintenance do they require? Is the 5 year break even point pretty much guaranteed, and considering those things?

djrogers 12y ago
They've got 20yr warranties, and require zero maintenance where I live. If you have more rain/snow than I get, or perhaps salt spray etc, you may need to do some cleaning. Once every few months the monitoring doohickey needs a reboot, but the panels work with or without that. For my personal situation, unless PG&E reduces their power rates over the next 5 years, I'll absolutely hit that break-even point. Panel production will degrade over time - the warranty covers something like 3% the first year, and 1% every year after that. So at 5 years I will have less than an 8% reduction in output from the panels. That 8% will be made up by that time with LED bulbs, a variable speed pool pump, etc. Heck, right now out of the ~30 ceiling cans in my house, only my office (4) and front porch (3) are LED. The rest are full 60W sucking incandescent bulbs. The chandeliers are also 60W bulbs too, accounting for another dozen or so lights that are on quite frequently. What can I say - my wife hates CFLs and barely tolerates LEDs.
- baddox 12y ago
  You mentioned the reduction in your energy bill, but do you happen to track how much of that comes from selling back to the grid and how much comes from you using your solar power directly? If you're generating 10kW a few hours each day, I would guess that's the only time you're selling back. Would there be any point in an energy storage system for you? I've always had this fanciful notion of having a solar array and building an underground flywheel for storage, but only because I'm riveted by flywheels. I haven't looked into the ROI of CFLs or LEDs vs. incandescents in a while. I imagine they have improved. Lately, I've even seen some LED bulbs in stores that don't look horrible. Of course, I would buy them anyway just to save time changing bulbs!
  - secabeen 12y ago
    I have a similar system, and I sell back for about 80% of daylight hours. That credit covers all of my other needs in the summer (and then some), and about half of my usage during the winter months. When you originally design the system, you use current rates and policies to create a system that generates at most a net zero usage.

g8oz 12y ago

Wholesale panels are $500 a kW. That's a lot of markup you had to pay. Definitely much room for improvement on margins.

secabeen 12y ago
Labor is a big cost, as well as permitting and the like. It's certainly a business with a lot of profit in it now. As long as the marginal rates of power are high, it's still break-even for the customer fast enough that they don't mind. The feds and the utilities pay the costs.