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False. You can build any UI you want, as well as any feature you like. The restriction is that you must use WebKit as the rendering engine for content that co

by gress 12y ago

False. You can build any UI you want, as well as any feature you like. The restriction is that you must use WebKit as the rendering engine for content that contains JavaScript.

hnriot 12y ago
an utterly pointless distinction, since a "rendering engine for content that contains JavaScript" is a browser. so like the guy before you said, on iOS you don't build a browser, you build a skin.
JohnTHaller 12y ago
> the rendering engine for content that contains JavaScript Right. So, a browser. You just proved my point. Apple allows exactly one browser on iOS. Theirs.
bad_user 12y ago
It's not only WebKit, but also the Javascript engine and to make matters worse, on iOS last time I checked the web view that you could use in apps wasn't using the same Javascript engine that Safari was using, which means that an alternative browser is slower than Safari by default. From what I've been hearing, lately developers can use the same engine as Safari inside those web views, but the functionality is still buggy. And this matters, because the main features that browsers compete on is speed and new features (in HTML5 and Javascript). This is what made people switch to Chrome, making it gain a whooping 40% (or is it 50%) in market share. This is also what made Firefox gain market share from IExplorer. And if your browser is slower than the default one, then you cannot compete with that default. If your browser cannot be a platform (for add-ons or apps, like what Firefox is doing on Android), then you cannot compete with the default. Chrome on iOS is only a shadow of what it is on the desktop. And Firefox on Android is the only one that allows me to use useful add-ons, such as AdBlock Plus, HTTPS Everywhere and LastPass. Do you know how awesome that is? And this doesn't work on iOS (i.e. having add-ons) because of Apple's restrictions. And yes, I'm even rooting for Gekko (instead of WebKit), because it is Firefox that brought us Asm.js [1], I even bought the Humble Mozilla Bundle [2] and they made everybody optimize for it, including Microsoft. And now they are working on SIMD.js as well [3]. I received an iPhone 6 as a gift 3 weeks ago and I sold it - yes it's nice, but it doesn't run Firefox and apparently Apple kicked VLC out of the app store as well. And personally I couldn't picture myself living with such restrictions so I sold it - now I'm waiting for my Nexus 6 to arrive :-) [1] http://asmjs.org/ http://asmjs.org/ [2] https://blog.mozilla.org/blog/2014/10/14/play-awesome-indie-games-directly-in-firefox-including-the-award-winning-ftl/ https://blog.mozilla.org/blog/2014/10/14/play-awesome-indie-... [3] https://hacks.mozilla.org/2014/10/introducing-simd-js/ https://hacks.mozilla.org/2014/10/introducing-simd-js/
- gress 12y ago
  Android is vastly less secure than iOS, which is why there are millions of android devices participating in botnets, and millions of users having money stolen from them by malware on Android. Apple is cautious about allowing their consumer products to run downloaded code for this reason - it provides a clear and undeniable benefit for customers. Of course some people want to trade this benefit for the benefit of more flexibility. That is one of the reasons for choosing Android. Pretending that the iOS approach is just about stifling competition is ignoring the facts. Also your claim that Chrome uptake was just about speed is unsupported. It was installed as part of the flash installer on many people's machines, and pushed on the Google homepage. Some people may have chose it for technical reasons but many people did so because it was marketed heavily, or installed with another product.
  - JohnTHaller 12y ago
    The Android and iOS devices running malware are nearly all doing so due to the built-in security measures being disabled by the end user to enable the addition of apps not from their respective app stores. Specifically, Android devices with side-loading enabled or iOS devices that are jailbroken. Pirated versions of paid apps and games will often contain malware. There are numerous examples for both platforms. As to the numbers, there are a lot more Android phones where the user has enabled side-loading or rooted than there are iOS devices that are jailbroken. Anecdotally, I don't know a single person in real life on either iOS or on Android that's gotten malware. Anti-competitive behavior to keep apps that compete for Apple's customer data and money off of iOS provides a clear and undeniable benefit for Apple. It's not like this is unusual or new behavior for them: http://www.digitaltrends.com/music/apple-deleted-non-itunes-music-off-ipods-for-two-years-answers-for-it-in-court/ http://www.digitaltrends.com/music/apple-deleted-non-itunes-...
    - gress 12y ago
      You have proven the point. If Apple allowed sideloading or rooting, nobody would accuse them of anti-competitive behavior. Therefore you are asserting that what you are calling 'anti-competitive' behavior is precisely what limits malware on iOS vs Android. Bear in mind that all of the major vendors, including Google have been convicted of wrongdoing and anti-competitive behavior, so linking to breathless headlines demonstrates nothing.
Aldo_MX 12y ago
I still wonder why hasn't anyone sued Apple for anti-competitive behavior...
- JohnTHaller 12y ago
  Anti-competitive behavior is often legal. It's often only illegal when a monopoly as Microsoft was when the US and the EU leveled previous decisions against them. Apple has 42% of the smartphone market in the US, its largest market, and far less everywhere else.

by gress 12y ago

False. You can build any UI you want, as well as any feature you like. The restriction is that you must use WebKit as the rendering engine for content that contains JavaScript.

hnriot 12y ago

an utterly pointless distinction, since a "rendering engine for content that contains JavaScript" is a browser. so like the guy before you said, on iOS you don't build a browser, you build a skin.

JohnTHaller 12y ago

> the rendering engine for content that contains JavaScript Right. So, a browser. You just proved my point. Apple allows exactly one browser on iOS. Theirs.

bad_user 12y ago

It's not only WebKit, but also the Javascript engine and to make matters worse, on iOS last time I checked the web view that you could use in apps wasn't using the same Javascript engine that Safari was using, which means that an alternative browser is slower than Safari by default. From what I've been hearing, lately developers can use the same engine as Safari inside those web views, but the functionality is still buggy. And this matters, because the main features that browsers compete on is speed and new features (in HTML5 and Javascript). This is what made people switch to Chrome, making it gain a whooping 40% (or is it 50%) in market share. This is also what made Firefox gain market share from IExplorer. And if your browser is slower than the default one, then you cannot compete with that default. If your browser cannot be a platform (for add-ons or apps, like what Firefox is doing on Android), then you cannot compete with the default. Chrome on iOS is only a shadow of what it is on the desktop. And Firefox on Android is the only one that allows me to use useful add-ons, such as AdBlock Plus, HTTPS Everywhere and LastPass. Do you know how awesome that is? And this doesn't work on iOS (i.e. having add-ons) because of Apple's restrictions. And yes, I'm even rooting for Gekko (instead of WebKit), because it is Firefox that brought us Asm.js [1], I even bought the Humble Mozilla Bundle [2] and they made everybody optimize for it, including Microsoft. And now they are working on SIMD.js as well [3]. I received an iPhone 6 as a gift 3 weeks ago and I sold it - yes it's nice, but it doesn't run Firefox and apparently Apple kicked VLC out of the app store as well. And personally I couldn't picture myself living with such restrictions so I sold it - now I'm waiting for my Nexus 6 to arrive :-) [1] http://asmjs.org/ http://asmjs.org/ [2] https://blog.mozilla.org/blog/2014/10/14/play-awesome-indie-games-directly-in-firefox-including-the-award-winning-ftl/ https://blog.mozilla.org/blog/2014/10/14/play-awesome-indie-... [3] https://hacks.mozilla.org/2014/10/introducing-simd-js/ https://hacks.mozilla.org/2014/10/introducing-simd-js/

gress 12y ago
Android is vastly less secure than iOS, which is why there are millions of android devices participating in botnets, and millions of users having money stolen from them by malware on Android. Apple is cautious about allowing their consumer products to run downloaded code for this reason - it provides a clear and undeniable benefit for customers. Of course some people want to trade this benefit for the benefit of more flexibility. That is one of the reasons for choosing Android. Pretending that the iOS approach is just about stifling competition is ignoring the facts. Also your claim that Chrome uptake was just about speed is unsupported. It was installed as part of the flash installer on many people's machines, and pushed on the Google homepage. Some people may have chose it for technical reasons but many people did so because it was marketed heavily, or installed with another product.
- JohnTHaller 12y ago
  The Android and iOS devices running malware are nearly all doing so due to the built-in security measures being disabled by the end user to enable the addition of apps not from their respective app stores. Specifically, Android devices with side-loading enabled or iOS devices that are jailbroken. Pirated versions of paid apps and games will often contain malware. There are numerous examples for both platforms. As to the numbers, there are a lot more Android phones where the user has enabled side-loading or rooted than there are iOS devices that are jailbroken. Anecdotally, I don't know a single person in real life on either iOS or on Android that's gotten malware. Anti-competitive behavior to keep apps that compete for Apple's customer data and money off of iOS provides a clear and undeniable benefit for Apple. It's not like this is unusual or new behavior for them: http://www.digitaltrends.com/music/apple-deleted-non-itunes-music-off-ipods-for-two-years-answers-for-it-in-court/ http://www.digitaltrends.com/music/apple-deleted-non-itunes-...
  - gress 12y ago
    You have proven the point. If Apple allowed sideloading or rooting, nobody would accuse them of anti-competitive behavior. Therefore you are asserting that what you are calling 'anti-competitive' behavior is precisely what limits malware on iOS vs Android. Bear in mind that all of the major vendors, including Google have been convicted of wrongdoing and anti-competitive behavior, so linking to breathless headlines demonstrates nothing.

Aldo_MX 12y ago

I still wonder why hasn't anyone sued Apple for anti-competitive behavior...

JohnTHaller 12y ago
Anti-competitive behavior is often legal. It's often only illegal when a monopoly as Microsoft was when the US and the EU leveled previous decisions against them. Apple has 42% of the smartphone market in the US, its largest market, and far less everywhere else.