5 ms·

- How far away from a release is this? - Given that Apple does not allow other render engines. What makes this Firefox?

by 0x006A 12y ago

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
dubcanada 12y ago
Well according to tweets, not very far. And with the release of WKWebView, I guess it makes it a skin.
micampe 12y ago
> What makes this Firefox? I think that's an interesting question. Is a browser defined by its rendering engine or by its features and UI? When Chrome used WebKit, it was clearly understood by everyone to be different from Safari, even though the rendering engine was the same (I know, the differences were big), but a Firefox browser that uses WebKit seems to not be considered Firefox. Personally, while I understand the philosophical and political differences, I think the browser is defined by its features, not the rendering engine: the user wants their bookmarks to sync between the phone and the computer, they don't care whether the two programs use the same library to draw the page on the screen or not, just like they don't care which malloc() implementation they use. To put it in fewer words: Chrome on iOS is still Chrome, not Safari, because it has Chrome's features. (This would not have been true a decade ago, but rendering engines compatibility is much less of an issue now)
- Refefer 12y ago
  It's a huge issue on mobile. Multiple rendering engines requiring the world to write software to a spec is what prevents people from writing code dependent on a particular browser or, in this case, a rendering engine. You see it all the time in the mobile web: plenty of sites just plain don't work when using other rendering engines.
  - acqq 12y ago
    And the fact that web developers then actually can't develop just for one rendering engine and claim that "it's enough" is a very good thing for me. I refuse to use Chrome and I'm extremely hit by all the sites developed "for Chrome only" on the desktop. The web shouldn't be "what's on the developer's machine and not more."
- maxmcd 12y ago
  I feel like whenever I read discussions about this on HN it's all about the JS engine. Chrome was on webkit but used V8. And unless something has changed all non-safari browsers and webviews use an inferior JS engine. Edit: (Something has changed, WKWebView now has the Nitro JS Engine, cool beans)
  - oscargrouch 12y ago
    Also, when Chrome was launched, it was the only browser with a multi-process approach to a multi-tab browser world.. Also their approach to threads were right from the beginning, and that converge into a awesome no-lock and no-glitch browsing experience.. After that, every other browser followed them. So, to be fair, Chrome was much more than V8 (which was also a part of its voodoo)
    - bgarbiak 12y ago
      Also, when Chrome was launched, it was the only browser with a multi-process approach to a multi-tab browser world.. Nope, IE8 was: http://blogs.msdn.com/b/ie/archive/2008/03/11/ie8-and-loosely-coupled-ie-lcie.aspx http://blogs.msdn.com/b/ie/archive/2008/03/11/ie8-and-loosel...
      - ClashTheBunny 12y ago
        Chrome still crashes a few tabs for every process crash. And it feels random the ones that are threads of the same process.
  - snotrockets 12y ago
    Chrome's WebKit wasn't 100% compatible with Safari's WebKit. They released from different branches.
- Touche 12y ago
  You put the rendering engine and features in opposite corners, which is false. Blink and Gecko have features that WebKit does not. Like WebRTC.
  - gberger 12y ago
    I think he refers to features like Bookmark sync, developer tools, and so on.
  - micampe 12y ago
    Finest HN nitpicking. Chrome on Android is missing some features from Chrome desktop (extensions, Flash, NaCl), is it not Chrome anymore?
    - Touche 12y ago
      No, because they chose to exclude those features.
      - micampe 12y ago
        Yup. Good job nitpicking and completely ignoring the point.
pikachu_is_cool 12y ago
Maybe this will be for the jailbroken platform (probably not though :/)
- Yoric 12y ago
  I wouldn't count on it.
- shmerl 12y ago
  iOS SDK forbids one even to build any other browser legally (which is glaring example of of lock-in insanity). At least that's how the license looks like. Are there any alternatives way to build code for iOS?
  - rweichler 12y ago
    > iOS SDK forbids one even to build any other browser legally Really? Can you provide a link? > Are there any alternatives way to build code for iOS? http://iphonedevwiki.net/index.php/Compiling_iOS_applications_on-device http://iphonedevwiki.net/index.php/Compiling_iOS_application... No restrictions there.
    - rimantas 12y ago
      App Store Guidelines: > 2.17 Apps that browse the web must use the iOS WebKit > framework and WebKit Javascript https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/ https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/
      - shmerl 12y ago
        This is not about the store guidelines but about the license of the SDK itself really.
    - shmerl 12y ago
      I researched it a while ago, may be the SDK license changed since then. That's what I found then: License: http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/gadgetlab/files/iphone-sdk-agreement.pdf http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/gadgetlab/files/iphone-sdk... Relevant parts (emphasis in italics): ----------------------- 3.3 Program Requirements for Applications Any Application developed using this SDK must comply with these criteria and requirements, as they may be modified by Apple from time to time: .... 3.3.2 An Application may not itself install or launch other executable code by any means, including without limitation through the use of a plug-in architecture, calling other frameworks, other APIs or otherwise. No interpreted code may be downloaded and used in an Application except for code that is interpreted and run by Apple's Published APIs and builtin interpreter(s). ----------------------- Combine the above with this: ----------------------- 3.2 Use of the SDK As a condition to using the SDK, You agree that: (a) You will only use the SDK for the purposes and in the manner expressly permitted by this Agreement and in accordance with all applicable laws and regulations; ----------------------- TL;DR (at least how I understood it and IANAL) you can't even legally build any browser which uses its own engine and can run JavaScript code from the network (which is virtually any browser) if you use iOS SDK from Apple. Of course you can simply ignore this sick level of insanity and build whatever you want, but we are talking about that Apple attempted to legally ban you from building certain applications (it's not even about accepting them in the store, it's about building in compliance with the SDK license!). Such kind of stuff makes me have zero respect for Apple in general.
JohnTHaller 12y ago
> What makes this Firefox? The icon and a bit of UI design. That plus the ability to sync bookmarks and passwords with Firefox Sync. Otherwise, it's Firefox in name only. It's just a skin over Safari, like all other iOS browsers as per Apple's rules.
emsy 12y ago
It comes from a non-profit organisation and it's the only major browser that's completely open source.

- How far away from a release is this? - Given that Apple does not allow other render engines. What makes this Firefox?

by 0x006A 12y ago

- How far away from a release is this? - Given that Apple does not allow other render engines. What makes this Firefox?

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

dubcanada 12y ago

Well according to tweets, not very far. And with the release of WKWebView, I guess it makes it a skin.

micampe 12y ago

> What makes this Firefox? I think that's an interesting question. Is a browser defined by its rendering engine or by its features and UI? When Chrome used WebKit, it was clearly understood by everyone to be different from Safari, even though the rendering engine was the same (I know, the differences were big), but a Firefox browser that uses WebKit seems to not be considered Firefox. Personally, while I understand the philosophical and political differences, I think the browser is defined by its features, not the rendering engine: the user wants their bookmarks to sync between the phone and the computer, they don't care whether the two programs use the same library to draw the page on the screen or not, just like they don't care which malloc() implementation they use. To put it in fewer words: Chrome on iOS is still Chrome, not Safari, because it has Chrome's features. (This would not have been true a decade ago, but rendering engines compatibility is much less of an issue now)

Refefer 12y ago
It's a huge issue on mobile. Multiple rendering engines requiring the world to write software to a spec is what prevents people from writing code dependent on a particular browser or, in this case, a rendering engine. You see it all the time in the mobile web: plenty of sites just plain don't work when using other rendering engines.
- acqq 12y ago
  And the fact that web developers then actually can't develop just for one rendering engine and claim that "it's enough" is a very good thing for me. I refuse to use Chrome and I'm extremely hit by all the sites developed "for Chrome only" on the desktop. The web shouldn't be "what's on the developer's machine and not more."
maxmcd 12y ago
I feel like whenever I read discussions about this on HN it's all about the JS engine. Chrome was on webkit but used V8. And unless something has changed all non-safari browsers and webviews use an inferior JS engine. Edit: (Something has changed, WKWebView now has the Nitro JS Engine, cool beans)
- oscargrouch 12y ago
  Also, when Chrome was launched, it was the only browser with a multi-process approach to a multi-tab browser world.. Also their approach to threads were right from the beginning, and that converge into a awesome no-lock and no-glitch browsing experience.. After that, every other browser followed them. So, to be fair, Chrome was much more than V8 (which was also a part of its voodoo)
  - bgarbiak 12y ago
    Also, when Chrome was launched, it was the only browser with a multi-process approach to a multi-tab browser world.. Nope, IE8 was: http://blogs.msdn.com/b/ie/archive/2008/03/11/ie8-and-loosely-coupled-ie-lcie.aspx http://blogs.msdn.com/b/ie/archive/2008/03/11/ie8-and-loosel...
    - ClashTheBunny 12y ago
      Chrome still crashes a few tabs for every process crash. And it feels random the ones that are threads of the same process.
- snotrockets 12y ago
  Chrome's WebKit wasn't 100% compatible with Safari's WebKit. They released from different branches.
Touche 12y ago
You put the rendering engine and features in opposite corners, which is false. Blink and Gecko have features that WebKit does not. Like WebRTC.
- gberger 12y ago
  I think he refers to features like Bookmark sync, developer tools, and so on.
- micampe 12y ago
  Finest HN nitpicking. Chrome on Android is missing some features from Chrome desktop (extensions, Flash, NaCl), is it not Chrome anymore?
  - Touche 12y ago
    No, because they chose to exclude those features.
    - micampe 12y ago
      Yup. Good job nitpicking and completely ignoring the point.

pikachu_is_cool 12y ago

Maybe this will be for the jailbroken platform (probably not though :/)

Yoric 12y ago
I wouldn't count on it.
shmerl 12y ago
iOS SDK forbids one even to build any other browser legally (which is glaring example of of lock-in insanity). At least that's how the license looks like. Are there any alternatives way to build code for iOS?
- rweichler 12y ago
  > iOS SDK forbids one even to build any other browser legally Really? Can you provide a link? > Are there any alternatives way to build code for iOS? http://iphonedevwiki.net/index.php/Compiling_iOS_applications_on-device http://iphonedevwiki.net/index.php/Compiling_iOS_application... No restrictions there.
  - rimantas 12y ago
    App Store Guidelines: > 2.17 Apps that browse the web must use the iOS WebKit > framework and WebKit Javascript https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/ https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/
    - shmerl 12y ago
      This is not about the store guidelines but about the license of the SDK itself really.
  - shmerl 12y ago
    I researched it a while ago, may be the SDK license changed since then. That's what I found then: License: http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/gadgetlab/files/iphone-sdk-agreement.pdf http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/gadgetlab/files/iphone-sdk... Relevant parts (emphasis in italics): ----------------------- 3.3 Program Requirements for Applications Any Application developed using this SDK must comply with these criteria and requirements, as they may be modified by Apple from time to time: .... 3.3.2 An Application may not itself install or launch other executable code by any means, including without limitation through the use of a plug-in architecture, calling other frameworks, other APIs or otherwise. No interpreted code may be downloaded and used in an Application except for code that is interpreted and run by Apple's Published APIs and builtin interpreter(s). ----------------------- Combine the above with this: ----------------------- 3.2 Use of the SDK As a condition to using the SDK, You agree that: (a) You will only use the SDK for the purposes and in the manner expressly permitted by this Agreement and in accordance with all applicable laws and regulations; ----------------------- TL;DR (at least how I understood it and IANAL) you can't even legally build any browser which uses its own engine and can run JavaScript code from the network (which is virtually any browser) if you use iOS SDK from Apple. Of course you can simply ignore this sick level of insanity and build whatever you want, but we are talking about that Apple attempted to legally ban you from building certain applications (it's not even about accepting them in the store, it's about building in compliance with the SDK license!). Such kind of stuff makes me have zero respect for Apple in general.

JohnTHaller 12y ago

> What makes this Firefox? The icon and a bit of UI design. That plus the ability to sync bookmarks and passwords with Firefox Sync. Otherwise, it's Firefox in name only. It's just a skin over Safari, like all other iOS browsers as per Apple's rules.

emsy 12y ago

It comes from a non-profit organisation and it's the only major browser that's completely open source.