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The UK isn't (obviously) as free with drug laws as Amsterdam, but here it's illegal to possess but not to use - aka if you walk into a police station smelling o

by corin_ 12y ago

The UK isn't (obviously) as free with drug laws as Amsterdam, but here it's illegal to possess but not to use - aka if you walk into a police station smelling of weed and high as a kite on coke they can't arrest (or caution or anything) you for it, unless you actually have drugs on you that you haven't yet taken. As such, if I witnessed a drug-caused medical issue, I'd get rid of whatever drugs were around (frankly I imagine if you put them in your pocket you'd be fine - doctors aren't allowed to inform the police about it unless they have a reason to believe you're a threat to the safety of yourself or others, and being a drug addict, short of being really close to killing yourself, isn't what that mean) and have no worries whatsoever about calling an ambulance. edit: side-question, is there anyone on here who a.) knows what coke and white heroin are like and b.) would be willing to comment (with a throwaway if preferred) on: is it hard to tell them apart? I've never seen any form of heroin in my life, but find it hard to believe I could sniff it without knowing.. so wonder is it an easy mistake, or were these victims people who didn't know what to expect cocaine to be like in the first place? edit 2: For anyone who hasn't been to Amsterdam, or at least the red light district... I've never taken them up on their offers, but the number of street dealers there... last time I was over there for work went out in the evening for a few drinks and some smoking, must've been offered coke over 10 times just while walking along streets. (And MDMA a couple of times, but not as frequently.) Never known anywhere easier to get coke if you wanted it, never known anywhere that I'd trust the quality of drugs on the street less if I had wanted it.

joopxiv 12y ago
I have no idea if this is an accurate depiction, but there's an impression of what snorting heroin as if it were cocaine looks like in Pulp Fiction.
tarpherder 12y ago
The GGD site has information on how to tell them apart: "Test it by placing a pinch of the powder on your tongue. If, within a few minutes, this does not have a numbing effect, it is not cocaine. It could be heroin instead." http://www.ggd.amsterdam.nl/english/drugsalert/more-information/ http://www.ggd.amsterdam.nl/english/drugsalert/more-informat...
- apendleton 12y ago
  This on a government website is even more amazing from an American perspective than the linked flier. Talk about taking harm reduction seriously...
celticninja 12y ago
In addition the police think that the dealer does not know what he is selling. Heroin is much more expensive per gram than cocaine. And yes having seen both they would be pretty similar by sight. Especially in a little bag and poor lighting they would be remarkably similar. Given that the users are expecting cocaine, the dealer thinks he is selling cocaine and the drug is a white powder it is understandable that this is happening. Think Uma Thurman in Pulp Fiction.
refurb 12y ago
Cocaine and heroin are sold as white or off-white powders. They are very hard to tell apart. As someone else mentioned, cocaine produces local anesthesia, so that provides a "test" for users, but street drugs are rarely pure so there is always a chance that a batch of heroin has a local anesthetic in it so it produces a false positive (likely very rare though). The thing that makes heroin masquerading as cocaine dangerous is that typical heroin doses are quite small (~10 mg) vs cocaine (~100 mg). If you get heroin instead of cocaine and snort your regular dose, it can easily be a fatal dose of heroin for a naive user.
- corin_ 12y ago
  Ah, the doses makes sense - I was figuring even if you couldn't tell the difference with a little taste or a tiny sniff, you wouldn't go line for line without realising it wasn't coke... but if one coke-sized line of heroin is enough to OD then even if you can spot the difference easily, all it takes is doing a line without checking and you're fucked.7
  - kale 12y ago
    This was a plot device in Pulp Fiction.
- peatmoss 12y ago
  > there is always a chance that a batch of heroin has a local anesthetic in it so it produces a false positive This suggests that there is some motivation to pass heroine off as cocaine, rather than this being a supply-chain mixup. But then why sell heroine as the substitute? It seems like the street value of heroine would still be higher than other substances (say, talc with the local anesthetic). If you're dealing, why not just try and pass that off, increase your profit margin, and not invite criminal investigation into the deaths of your customers? Or is the presumption here that some people are dealing with the purpose of causing harm?
  - corin_ 12y ago
    Coke often gets cut with other much cheaper drugs that will simulate some effects of cocaine (such as numbing) so that users are less likely to realise how cut their drug is. (All coke will be cut at least somewhat, but if you're buying it you're hoping a.) fairly high purity and b.) cut with non-toxic non-drugs, rather than other drugs) I'd be surprised if that didn't happen all the time with heroin too, though if heroin doesn't provide a numbing feeling then there's no motivation to specifically add a cheap numbing drug.. but numbing could well be an accidental side-affect of something that was added to dilute the % of heroin in each gram sold?
kyllo 12y ago
What if you were to post a photo of yourself using drugs to social media? Could the UK police arrest you for that? In South Korea they can and do arrest and prosecute people for photographic / recorded evidence of them doing drugs even while overseas.
- corin_ 12y ago
  I've no idea. I suspect that yes, since it's photographic evidence of what is a crime (possession), whereas if you just tweeted "I'm high as hell right now" that wouldn't be proof of a crime. But I also suspect they'd never bother to arrest for something like that unless you were dealing. Even if they catch you with drugs on you, as much as possession (non-dealing) charges have high maximums - for class A drugs I think the maximum is 7 years prison + fine for possession or life in prison for dealing - realistically you're unlikely to get in much trouble for a small quantity. Weed unless you're a serious repeat offender, or a cop decides he hates you, you'll either get an on-the-spot official "caution" and fine up to £90, or more likely a non-recorded verbal warning and confiscation. For harder drugs police aren't meant to do that, but stories I've heard you're still more likely to get confiscation and possibly a caution. I've even known weed dealers (low level) who've been caught and only had to give up the cash and weed they had on them.
  - richthegeek 12y ago
    No they wouldn't - it might provide basis for a search warrant if the pictured quantity is large enough, but they have no way of proving that the thing in the picture is actually cocaine vs baking sugar. As a slightly related anecdote, a friend of a friend got caught with 11 grams of cocaine (supplying for a party, I think) and by the time he got to court he was being charged with possession of 4 grams, which reduced his "years in prison" with "a few months probation and a fine". No mention of where the 7 grams went in the months between.
  - lotsofmangos 12y ago
    Photographic evidence or CCTV, by itself, is almost never enough to reach a conviction.
hobs 12y ago
In regards to edit 2, I couldnt agree more, if you are a tourist the street dealers in Amsterdam can be kind of nuts, one guy even followed me for almost 5 city blocks completely incredulous that I would not want to buy cocaine from him.
- corin_ 12y ago
  I actually thought they were great - I mean, I wouldn't trust their product, but all I've experienced multiple times there were people who whisper the name of the drug they're selling in your ear while walking past you in the opposite direction, never had anyone trying to convince me to buy. The only time I've even had to say a word back to them was when a friend and I were curious what the street price was so stopped one who offered and said sorry we're not buying, but would you mind telling us the prices, and he did and then went off cheerfully.
BrianEatWorld 12y ago
That sounds like a good policy, but I feel like it could be taken a step further by allowing for possession in a medical emergency. It seems like it would be helpful to medics to have a sample of whatever it is that the person has taken.
DKnoll 12y ago
It's significantly more likely that the 'White Heroin' is actually Fentanyl or another designer opioid.

by corin_ 12y ago

joopxiv 12y ago

I have no idea if this is an accurate depiction, but there's an impression of what snorting heroin as if it were cocaine looks like in Pulp Fiction.

tarpherder 12y ago

The GGD site has information on how to tell them apart: "Test it by placing a pinch of the powder on your tongue. If, within a few minutes, this does not have a numbing effect, it is not cocaine. It could be heroin instead." http://www.ggd.amsterdam.nl/english/drugsalert/more-information/ http://www.ggd.amsterdam.nl/english/drugsalert/more-informat...

apendleton 12y ago
This on a government website is even more amazing from an American perspective than the linked flier. Talk about taking harm reduction seriously...

celticninja 12y ago

In addition the police think that the dealer does not know what he is selling. Heroin is much more expensive per gram than cocaine. And yes having seen both they would be pretty similar by sight. Especially in a little bag and poor lighting they would be remarkably similar. Given that the users are expecting cocaine, the dealer thinks he is selling cocaine and the drug is a white powder it is understandable that this is happening. Think Uma Thurman in Pulp Fiction.

refurb 12y ago

Cocaine and heroin are sold as white or off-white powders. They are very hard to tell apart. As someone else mentioned, cocaine produces local anesthesia, so that provides a "test" for users, but street drugs are rarely pure so there is always a chance that a batch of heroin has a local anesthetic in it so it produces a false positive (likely very rare though). The thing that makes heroin masquerading as cocaine dangerous is that typical heroin doses are quite small (~10 mg) vs cocaine (~100 mg). If you get heroin instead of cocaine and snort your regular dose, it can easily be a fatal dose of heroin for a naive user.

corin_ 12y ago
Ah, the doses makes sense - I was figuring even if you couldn't tell the difference with a little taste or a tiny sniff, you wouldn't go line for line without realising it wasn't coke... but if one coke-sized line of heroin is enough to OD then even if you can spot the difference easily, all it takes is doing a line without checking and you're fucked.7
- kale 12y ago
  This was a plot device in Pulp Fiction.
peatmoss 12y ago
> there is always a chance that a batch of heroin has a local anesthetic in it so it produces a false positive This suggests that there is some motivation to pass heroine off as cocaine, rather than this being a supply-chain mixup. But then why sell heroine as the substitute? It seems like the street value of heroine would still be higher than other substances (say, talc with the local anesthetic). If you're dealing, why not just try and pass that off, increase your profit margin, and not invite criminal investigation into the deaths of your customers? Or is the presumption here that some people are dealing with the purpose of causing harm?
- corin_ 12y ago
  Coke often gets cut with other much cheaper drugs that will simulate some effects of cocaine (such as numbing) so that users are less likely to realise how cut their drug is. (All coke will be cut at least somewhat, but if you're buying it you're hoping a.) fairly high purity and b.) cut with non-toxic non-drugs, rather than other drugs) I'd be surprised if that didn't happen all the time with heroin too, though if heroin doesn't provide a numbing feeling then there's no motivation to specifically add a cheap numbing drug.. but numbing could well be an accidental side-affect of something that was added to dilute the % of heroin in each gram sold?

kyllo 12y ago

What if you were to post a photo of yourself using drugs to social media? Could the UK police arrest you for that? In South Korea they can and do arrest and prosecute people for photographic / recorded evidence of them doing drugs even while overseas.

corin_ 12y ago
I've no idea. I suspect that yes, since it's photographic evidence of what is a crime (possession), whereas if you just tweeted "I'm high as hell right now" that wouldn't be proof of a crime. But I also suspect they'd never bother to arrest for something like that unless you were dealing. Even if they catch you with drugs on you, as much as possession (non-dealing) charges have high maximums - for class A drugs I think the maximum is 7 years prison + fine for possession or life in prison for dealing - realistically you're unlikely to get in much trouble for a small quantity. Weed unless you're a serious repeat offender, or a cop decides he hates you, you'll either get an on-the-spot official "caution" and fine up to £90, or more likely a non-recorded verbal warning and confiscation. For harder drugs police aren't meant to do that, but stories I've heard you're still more likely to get confiscation and possibly a caution. I've even known weed dealers (low level) who've been caught and only had to give up the cash and weed they had on them.
- richthegeek 12y ago
  No they wouldn't - it might provide basis for a search warrant if the pictured quantity is large enough, but they have no way of proving that the thing in the picture is actually cocaine vs baking sugar. As a slightly related anecdote, a friend of a friend got caught with 11 grams of cocaine (supplying for a party, I think) and by the time he got to court he was being charged with possession of 4 grams, which reduced his "years in prison" with "a few months probation and a fine". No mention of where the 7 grams went in the months between.
- lotsofmangos 12y ago
  Photographic evidence or CCTV, by itself, is almost never enough to reach a conviction.

hobs 12y ago

In regards to edit 2, I couldnt agree more, if you are a tourist the street dealers in Amsterdam can be kind of nuts, one guy even followed me for almost 5 city blocks completely incredulous that I would not want to buy cocaine from him.

corin_ 12y ago
I actually thought they were great - I mean, I wouldn't trust their product, but all I've experienced multiple times there were people who whisper the name of the drug they're selling in your ear while walking past you in the opposite direction, never had anyone trying to convince me to buy. The only time I've even had to say a word back to them was when a friend and I were curious what the street price was so stopped one who offered and said sorry we're not buying, but would you mind telling us the prices, and he did and then went off cheerfully.

BrianEatWorld 12y ago

That sounds like a good policy, but I feel like it could be taken a step further by allowing for possession in a medical emergency. It seems like it would be helpful to medics to have a sample of whatever it is that the person has taken.

DKnoll 12y ago

It's significantly more likely that the 'White Heroin' is actually Fentanyl or another designer opioid.