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I'm rather frustrated with this huge push to create a "new" CS degree, which is basically saying "Let's abandon half of CS and focus on just programming." Compu

I'm rather frustrated with this huge push to create a "new" CS degree, which is basically saying "Let's abandon half of CS and focus on just programming." Computer Science is, obviously enough, the science of Computers and computation. Coincidentally, programming happens to be a tool for computer scientists to interact with computers and demonstrate computational theory. While I understand and appreciate the necessity for good programmers/developers, people seem to miss the point of what a Computer Scientist actually is. It includes a whole lot of theory and knowledge of how computers function and operate, from the fundamental logic up to the application layer. Programming is learned as a Computer Scientist not necessarily for the purpose of a career, but rather as a means of implementing and testing theories and ideas. Much the same as Mathematics where theories are abundant, many of which are necessary to become a mathematician. You don't see anyone trying to create a Math degree that skips a lot of theory and just teaches you Applied Mathematics for a career. While the analogy breaks down when you move into industry, the concept is the same. If you are pursuing a Computer Science degree, you must become a Computer Scientist. If you want a more objective approach, see the definition of Computer Science as put forth by wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_science http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_science . You'll notice that Software Engineering is but a subset of the field of Applied Computer Science, which is itself a subset of Computer Science. Before I continue ranting I'll just summarize: You cannot forgo or severely reduce the extensive amount of theory behind Computer Science and churn out Computer Scientists. It does not match up. If your goal is instead to produce more software engineers / programmers / developers who are not real Computer Scientists, then you should re-name your degree and your program. You might find CIT/CNIT/IT more appropriate. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_technology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_technology

pikachu_is_cool 12y ago
Yea, the culture basically is Computer Science == Software Engineering. As much as I hate it, most people get degrees nowadays not for research or education, but to land a job. However by using that association I'd say that it helps a bit to pick out the people who make that incorrect association (and are getting a CS degree for work instead of for research) that otherwise wouldn't take it seriously if it just said software engineering. It leaves more room in the universities for people that actually want to learn CS and the people who didn't know the difference between the terms learns what they need to get a job (since I'm sure true computer scientists would understand that the term is butchered). It's a win-win IMO.
- larssorenson 12y ago
  I understand what you're saying, but I think that my point is still valid: If you want to offer a degree to become a Software Engineer, it should be a Software Engineering degree program not a Computer Science degree. Someone else mentioned that the direct path to Applied Mathematics takes form of say an Engineering degree. They are two separate degrees/programs yet clearly Engineering is just the fast path to a career in Math in an industry environment. So too should a Software Engineering degree be a fast path to a career in Computer Science in an industry environment.
JDiculous 12y ago
Most CS students aren't aiming to be computer scientists (which typically requires a PhD), they just want a job. And software engineering jobs demand CS degrees. I'm glad that people are creating alternatives to the traditional 4-year CS degree. But personally I think the solution isn't going to involve students paying tens of thousands of dollars to learn information that's available for free online.
- larssorenson 12y ago
  The problem is that Computer Science has not been able to mature enough to split programming/Software Engineering into another, separate degree. You do not need a PhD to become a Computer Scientist. If you want to do research and development for a company, it helps but is not necessary. Academia does require it, but that still is not a restriction. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitfield_Diffie http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitfield_Diffie one of the co-developers of the Diffie-Hellman key exchange. He never achieved a PhD, yet helped break ground in crypto.
balldontlie 12y ago
> You don't see anyone trying to create a Math degree that skips a lot of theory and just teaches you Applied Mathematics for a career. Yes we do. It's called Engineering.
- larssorenson 12y ago
  Yeah but you'll notice that it is a separate degree and program, targeted for a career in industry applying the math. There are no "alternative" Math degree programs to make better Applied Mathematicians, because they realized that you cannot give someone a Math degree to be an applied mathematician without all the theory behind it. Hence, Engineering, in your example.

pikachu_is_cool 12y ago

Yea, the culture basically is Computer Science == Software Engineering. As much as I hate it, most people get degrees nowadays not for research or education, but to land a job. However by using that association I'd say that it helps a bit to pick out the people who make that incorrect association (and are getting a CS degree for work instead of for research) that otherwise wouldn't take it seriously if it just said software engineering. It leaves more room in the universities for people that actually want to learn CS and the people who didn't know the difference between the terms learns what they need to get a job (since I'm sure true computer scientists would understand that the term is butchered). It's a win-win IMO.

larssorenson 12y ago
I understand what you're saying, but I think that my point is still valid: If you want to offer a degree to become a Software Engineer, it should be a Software Engineering degree program not a Computer Science degree. Someone else mentioned that the direct path to Applied Mathematics takes form of say an Engineering degree. They are two separate degrees/programs yet clearly Engineering is just the fast path to a career in Math in an industry environment. So too should a Software Engineering degree be a fast path to a career in Computer Science in an industry environment.

JDiculous 12y ago

Most CS students aren't aiming to be computer scientists (which typically requires a PhD), they just want a job. And software engineering jobs demand CS degrees. I'm glad that people are creating alternatives to the traditional 4-year CS degree. But personally I think the solution isn't going to involve students paying tens of thousands of dollars to learn information that's available for free online.

larssorenson 12y ago
The problem is that Computer Science has not been able to mature enough to split programming/Software Engineering into another, separate degree. You do not need a PhD to become a Computer Scientist. If you want to do research and development for a company, it helps but is not necessary. Academia does require it, but that still is not a restriction. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitfield_Diffie http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitfield_Diffie one of the co-developers of the Diffie-Hellman key exchange. He never achieved a PhD, yet helped break ground in crypto.

balldontlie 12y ago

> You don't see anyone trying to create a Math degree that skips a lot of theory and just teaches you Applied Mathematics for a career. Yes we do. It's called Engineering.

larssorenson 12y ago
Yeah but you'll notice that it is a separate degree and program, targeted for a career in industry applying the math. There are no "alternative" Math degree programs to make better Applied Mathematicians, because they realized that you cannot give someone a Math degree to be an applied mathematician without all the theory behind it. Hence, Engineering, in your example.