5 ms·

For software development, it seems like something that has no upside at all (aside from saving money on office space), and tons of downsides. Commercial real e

For software development, it seems like something that has no upside at all (aside from saving money on office space), and tons of downsides. Commercial real estate is about $3/SF (per month) in San Francisco (Class A) and $4/SF in Manhattan. Open plan offices save about 75-100 SF per employee (more, if you're looking to be sadistic and impractical, but at this point, the productivity loss is obvious.) So the employer is saving, at absolute most, $5000 per employee per year. It's not worth it. I bring this up because I just really truly don't get the occasional open office boosterism here. My current theory is that most of it comes from people who are still in the honeymoon phase of their career (like, the first few years after college when everything about the workplace still has some novelty to it). That's basically what it is. The open-plan layout is reminiscent of college and the all-nighters in the computer lab. But work is not college. A bad grade on an assignment is much more fixable than getting fired. The stakes are higher, and that's why a certain brand of professionalism (or, more bluntly, divorcing oneself from behaviors that are acceptable for 18- to 21-year-olds) is necessary. I say this because it seems like many/most of the people I talk to in person who like the open office idea have either literally never had a private office, or are relatively fresh out of college and get a job at Google (or a startup, or wherever), and they're still so excited about everything that even the things that are hassles (like open office plans?) seem like they're brimming with novelty. Well, private offices make nerf-gun battles harder. And you hear less juicy gossip. And you don't have an audience for self-important rants about Lena Dunham. It might get so "boring" (in the sense of a lack of distractions) that you might be tempted to actually work to pass the time.

fixedd 12y ago
At a former job I worked from home where I had peace and quiet pretty much all day. I only really worked 4-5 hours in a day, but I was significantly (in the order-of-magnitude realm) more productive than my in-office teammates. On the occasion I'd go into the office for a few days my productivity level would similarly plummet, even though I was working for more hours each day. I can only attribute this to the incessant interruptions of the open-office plan.
- jdbernard 12y ago
  I know it is just anecdote, but I'm the same way. I just don't have the flexibility to work from home regularly. With one company I previously worked for I took a sick day to stay home so I could actually finish an important project.
JeremyMorgan 12y ago
>Well, private offices make nerf-gun battles harder. And you hear less juicy gossip. And you don't have an audience for self-important rants about Lena Dunham. It might get so "boring" (in the sense of a lack of distractions) that you might be tempted to actually work to pass the time. Amazingly this is also an argument from working from home. I've been at two companies during a WFH transition and they act surprised at the increase in productivity. Often times it's this very reason, less babbling and nerf-gun fights and more actual work. Of course this doesn't cover those who "work from home" by watching Netflix and jiggling the mouse on their laptop every ten minutes or so. I'm talking about the more responsible people.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- Guthur 12y ago
  "Of course this doesn't cover those who "work from home" by watching Netflix and jiggling the mouse on their laptop every ten minutes or so. I'm talking about the more responsible people." It's probably still more productive because now they are not distracting anyone.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
nextstep 12y ago
>Commercial real estate is about $3/SF (per month) in San Francisco (Class A) and $4/SF in Manhattan. I think you're off by quite a bit with your price-per-square-foot estimates: http://therealdeal.com/blog/2013/10/01/manhattan-leasing-strong-in-q3-midtown-market-stratifies/ http://therealdeal.com/blog/2013/10/01/manhattan-leasing-str... That is from last year and the average price in Manhattan was about $60/sf.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- bri3d 12y ago
  Urban office leasing is almost universally quoted by yearly rates (for whatever reason), but your parent poster quoted by the month instead. $60/sf/yr works out to $5/sf/month, not far from your parent poster's assertion.
- knowaveragejoe 12y ago
  $60/sf by the above poster's metric(monthly) would be insanity.
technofiend 12y ago
>So the employer is saving, at absolute most, $5000 per employee per year. It's not worth it. And yet not only are employers embracing it but extending the model with hoteling and virtual desktops. A good friend of mine at Shell checks into his locker every morning and then goes and finds a random desk to work from for the day. I'll give you 10:1 the guy whose idea that was isn't sitting at a cube.
shortstuffsushi 12y ago
This seems like an unfairly-condescending post to me. The last line primarily. I don't think that having an open office implies the stereotypical "nerf gun wars, billiards, and foosball" environment (or at least it doesn't at the company I'm working for). Nor does it mean that those who work in it are irresponsible, immature, or self-important. Certainly those conditions exist, but it's not fair to generalize it that far.
- michaelochurch 12y ago
  Nor does it mean that those who work in it are irresponsible, immature, or self-important. Of course it doesn't. Most of them have no choice.
- varelse 12y ago
  I have yet to work in an open floor plan that was without barking dogs, nerf guns, loud meetings, and the occasional R/C helicopter. I work from home 75% now. When I'm in the office, I get next to nothing done.
  - rayiner 12y ago
    Dogs at work?!
    - oaktowner 12y ago
      I see all of those things in my office for sure.
    - cherry_su 12y ago
      Google[1], Pinterest[2], et al let you bring dogs to work. [1] http://www.mnn.com/family/pets/photos/10-companies-that-let-you-bring-your-dog-to-work/google http://www.mnn.com/family/pets/photos/10-companies-that-let-... [2] http://www.quora.com/What-San-Francisco-startups-allow-employees-to-bring-dogs-to-work http://www.quora.com/What-San-Francisco-startups-allow-emplo...
      - 12y ago
Negitivefrags 12y ago
Having individual offices is is a lot more complex then just more space. Actually building these things is non trivial. It's not just walls, it's air con vents, electrics, etc. I also think you may be underestimating the extra space required to make an office not feel like a closet. Then there is natural light. In a big open plan space light travels to the entire space. With offices you either need to build on the edge of the building and have a window, or make at least one wall out of glass (expensive). Even doing that you still can't just take a big room and turn it into partitioned offices. The capital outlay for a company to fit out a space with individual offices is actually really high and it all comes in one big hit. I'm sure if it was a matter of just paying 5k per employee extra per year the story would be different, but that isn't really a reality.
RachelF 12y ago
Saving money on office space is the main reason management goes for Open Plan. Note that in most companies more senior staff typically get their own office still.
Spooky23 12y ago
Rent is only the beginning of the costs. You need to build out the offices, which in a place like NYC means dealing with union BS and potentially carrying two rental costs if the market is tight. You're easily spending $100/sqft You also run into tax and other accounting issues by making permanent improvements to the office vs. buying modular cubes and such. Portable equipment gets deducted over a few years... permanent improvements get depreciated over long periods of time (30+ years!)... So you get to pay taxes on profits that you didn't make. Most companies don't have the cash flow to pay a 30% premium in a high tax state on expensive construction, so cubes are a no brainer.
overgard 12y ago
One of the companies I worked at did the Nerf gun thing. They meant well, but man, there's nothing more annoying than being on a deadline but you can't focus because you're never quite certain when a dart is going to fly at your head or into your coffee. I know companies don't want to be seen as stodgy or unfun, but its probably not a great idea to supply people with things to actively annoy each other...

fixedd 12y ago

At a former job I worked from home where I had peace and quiet pretty much all day. I only really worked 4-5 hours in a day, but I was significantly (in the order-of-magnitude realm) more productive than my in-office teammates. On the occasion I'd go into the office for a few days my productivity level would similarly plummet, even though I was working for more hours each day. I can only attribute this to the incessant interruptions of the open-office plan.

jdbernard 12y ago
I know it is just anecdote, but I'm the same way. I just don't have the flexibility to work from home regularly. With one company I previously worked for I took a sick day to stay home so I could actually finish an important project.

JeremyMorgan 12y ago

>Well, private offices make nerf-gun battles harder. And you hear less juicy gossip. And you don't have an audience for self-important rants about Lena Dunham. It might get so "boring" (in the sense of a lack of distractions) that you might be tempted to actually work to pass the time. Amazingly this is also an argument from working from home. I've been at two companies during a WFH transition and they act surprised at the increase in productivity. Often times it's this very reason, less babbling and nerf-gun fights and more actual work. Of course this doesn't cover those who "work from home" by watching Netflix and jiggling the mouse on their laptop every ten minutes or so. I'm talking about the more responsible people.

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
Guthur 12y ago
"Of course this doesn't cover those who "work from home" by watching Netflix and jiggling the mouse on their laptop every ten minutes or so. I'm talking about the more responsible people." It's probably still more productive because now they are not distracting anyone.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

nextstep 12y ago

>Commercial real estate is about $3/SF (per month) in San Francisco (Class A) and $4/SF in Manhattan. I think you're off by quite a bit with your price-per-square-foot estimates: http://therealdeal.com/blog/2013/10/01/manhattan-leasing-strong-in-q3-midtown-market-stratifies/ http://therealdeal.com/blog/2013/10/01/manhattan-leasing-str... That is from last year and the average price in Manhattan was about $60/sf.

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
bri3d 12y ago
Urban office leasing is almost universally quoted by yearly rates (for whatever reason), but your parent poster quoted by the month instead. $60/sf/yr works out to $5/sf/month, not far from your parent poster's assertion.
knowaveragejoe 12y ago
$60/sf by the above poster's metric(monthly) would be insanity.

technofiend 12y ago

>So the employer is saving, at absolute most, $5000 per employee per year. It's not worth it. And yet not only are employers embracing it but extending the model with hoteling and virtual desktops. A good friend of mine at Shell checks into his locker every morning and then goes and finds a random desk to work from for the day. I'll give you 10:1 the guy whose idea that was isn't sitting at a cube.

shortstuffsushi 12y ago

This seems like an unfairly-condescending post to me. The last line primarily. I don't think that having an open office implies the stereotypical "nerf gun wars, billiards, and foosball" environment (or at least it doesn't at the company I'm working for). Nor does it mean that those who work in it are irresponsible, immature, or self-important. Certainly those conditions exist, but it's not fair to generalize it that far.

michaelochurch 12y ago
Nor does it mean that those who work in it are irresponsible, immature, or self-important. Of course it doesn't. Most of them have no choice.
varelse 12y ago
I have yet to work in an open floor plan that was without barking dogs, nerf guns, loud meetings, and the occasional R/C helicopter. I work from home 75% now. When I'm in the office, I get next to nothing done.
- rayiner 12y ago
  Dogs at work?!
  - oaktowner 12y ago
    I see all of those things in my office for sure.
  - cherry_su 12y ago
    Google[1], Pinterest[2], et al let you bring dogs to work. [1] http://www.mnn.com/family/pets/photos/10-companies-that-let-you-bring-your-dog-to-work/google http://www.mnn.com/family/pets/photos/10-companies-that-let-... [2] http://www.quora.com/What-San-Francisco-startups-allow-employees-to-bring-dogs-to-work http://www.quora.com/What-San-Francisco-startups-allow-emplo...
    - 12y ago

Negitivefrags 12y ago

Having individual offices is is a lot more complex then just more space. Actually building these things is non trivial. It's not just walls, it's air con vents, electrics, etc. I also think you may be underestimating the extra space required to make an office not feel like a closet. Then there is natural light. In a big open plan space light travels to the entire space. With offices you either need to build on the edge of the building and have a window, or make at least one wall out of glass (expensive). Even doing that you still can't just take a big room and turn it into partitioned offices. The capital outlay for a company to fit out a space with individual offices is actually really high and it all comes in one big hit. I'm sure if it was a matter of just paying 5k per employee extra per year the story would be different, but that isn't really a reality.

RachelF 12y ago

Saving money on office space is the main reason management goes for Open Plan. Note that in most companies more senior staff typically get their own office still.

Spooky23 12y ago

Rent is only the beginning of the costs. You need to build out the offices, which in a place like NYC means dealing with union BS and potentially carrying two rental costs if the market is tight. You're easily spending $100/sqft You also run into tax and other accounting issues by making permanent improvements to the office vs. buying modular cubes and such. Portable equipment gets deducted over a few years... permanent improvements get depreciated over long periods of time (30+ years!)... So you get to pay taxes on profits that you didn't make. Most companies don't have the cash flow to pay a 30% premium in a high tax state on expensive construction, so cubes are a no brainer.

overgard 12y ago

One of the companies I worked at did the Nerf gun thing. They meant well, but man, there's nothing more annoying than being on a deadline but you can't focus because you're never quite certain when a dart is going to fly at your head or into your coffee. I know companies don't want to be seen as stodgy or unfun, but its probably not a great idea to supply people with things to actively annoy each other...