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> what about the ~50% of STEM grads who can't find a job in their industry? According to the Census bureau, 74% of STEM grads don't work in STEM [1]. I was pr

by jlebar 12y ago

> what about the ~50% of STEM grads who can't find a job in their industry? According to the Census bureau, 74% of STEM grads don't work in STEM [1]. I was pretty surprised to read this, until I looked up what the Census bureau considers to be STEM [2]. You can see from this graphic that CS, math, statistics, and engineering majors all end up working in STEM in relatively high proportions. It's the psychology, social sciences, biology, and (to a lesser degree) physical sciences majors who are dragging this statistic down. This isn't as surprising to me; indeed, if you hover over the labels in the graphic, you'll see that a lot of bio majors go into health care and education -- not surprising -- and that psych and social science majors go into a wide variety of fields -- again, not surprising or particularly relevant to this debate, I think. Coming back to people with CS/math/engineering degrees, you're right that about 50% are not employed in STEM-related fields [3]. However, we have zero reason to believe all of these people "can't find a job in their industry". Surely some of them voluntarily work outside STEM. Note that CS/math/engineering majors have significantly lower unemployment than college grads as a whole [4]. Note also that this 50% fraction is significantly higher for CS/math/engineering than it is for any other group of STEM majors; the next highest is physical sciences majors, of whom only a quarter work in STEM. In fact, the only groups of people I can find who work "in their fields" in a greater proportion than CS/math/engineering majors is non-STEM "science- and engineering-related" majors working in health care (presumably these are human biology majors and the like), and education majors working in education. Looking at this data, it's really hard for me to believe there's a problem here. Lots of people don't work in the field that they majored in. This is true for CS/math/engeineering majors, but not as much as most other majors. One more thing: > a lot of people in your country aren't as comfortable as you are in terms of pay. This is exactly my point, actually. Any time you make a decision like this, some people will be hurt, and others helped. But rather than judging this policy decision based on its effect on a particular group of people (almost always, it's "people like me"), we should consider its effect on the country as a whole. As I said, highly-skilled immigration is free economic growth, and a fantastic deal for the country as a whole. [1] http://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2014/cb14-130.html http://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2014/cb14-130.... [2] http://www.census.gov/dataviz/visualizations/stem/stem-html/ http://www.census.gov/dataviz/visualizations/stem/stem-html/ [3] https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1iEhflMxiWCbQvFyVJiRLZsphM3PZz_ItxYnrJGN8IJA/edit?usp=sharing https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1iEhflMxiWCbQvFyVJiRL... [4] https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1AcxdY__ls_F8P-rURtt_iNxCg5Uiw9CX9YM0yIAgYoc/edit?usp=sharing https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1AcxdY__ls_F8P-rURtt_...

knorby 12y ago
Of that group of STEM majors not in STEM, how many do you think could work in a STEM field after going through a professional masters program? Clearly, some do, but it takes a lot of money and valuable time. If under greater pressure, I'd imagine a lot more established tech companies would recruit with a masters program in exchange for a several year commitment. Some places do, but if it were harder to recruit, it is a fair guess more places would. I'm not really sure what to think about those sorts of arrangements. If I were an employer, I'd greatly prefer skill-based immigration, excluding questions of exploitation, and that's the point, particularly when referring to STEM as a whole.
anjc 12y ago
I like the visualisation in [2]! > However, we have zero reason to believe all of these people "can't find a job in their industry" We do, from the same datasource I believe. I'm copy/pasting from another reply i made here. "Some data from the economic policy institute (this is the first place i could re-find it): http://www.rit.edu/news/pdfs/CHE_Hira.pdf http://www.rit.edu/news/pdfs/CHE_Hira.pdf Of the 50% of engineering graduates not working in engineering, 40% of CS grads not in CS, (35% of these two groups, total, are working in totally unrelated fields), ~50% are not working in their fields because of pay and conditions, 37% are not working in their fields because they can't find work, and 10% are not working in the field for another reason. The 37% probably aren't the people who moved into management consulting." You don't feel that there's a problem, based on the data you found. And you might be right, if you don't look at it at a macro-level. The big picture is confusing, however. Companies and government are crying out for more tech workers. They're all lobbying for an easier way to bring workers to the US (my country, Ireland, are also doing this). But wages for computer scientists, across the US, are flat. They've been stagnant for a decade. If some proportion of CS grads do not go into CS, typical market dynamics would suggest that the lack of supply will drive up wages, and entice them into the field. This isn't happening. In fact, some sizeable proportion can't find their first job, out of college, and don't work in the field again. Something is amiss. Another copy/pasted this from another reply of mine: "Lastly, there's a large supply of unemployed CS graduates in the US: http://www.epi.org/publication/pm195-stem-labor-shortages-microsoft-report-distorts/ http://www.epi.org/publication/pm195-stem-labor-shortages-mi... "

by jlebar 12y ago

knorby 12y ago

Of that group of STEM majors not in STEM, how many do you think could work in a STEM field after going through a professional masters program? Clearly, some do, but it takes a lot of money and valuable time. If under greater pressure, I'd imagine a lot more established tech companies would recruit with a masters program in exchange for a several year commitment. Some places do, but if it were harder to recruit, it is a fair guess more places would. I'm not really sure what to think about those sorts of arrangements. If I were an employer, I'd greatly prefer skill-based immigration, excluding questions of exploitation, and that's the point, particularly when referring to STEM as a whole.

anjc 12y ago

I like the visualisation in [2]! > However, we have zero reason to believe all of these people "can't find a job in their industry" We do, from the same datasource I believe. I'm copy/pasting from another reply i made here. "Some data from the economic policy institute (this is the first place i could re-find it): http://www.rit.edu/news/pdfs/CHE_Hira.pdf http://www.rit.edu/news/pdfs/CHE_Hira.pdf Of the 50% of engineering graduates not working in engineering, 40% of CS grads not in CS, (35% of these two groups, total, are working in totally unrelated fields), ~50% are not working in their fields because of pay and conditions, 37% are not working in their fields because they can't find work, and 10% are not working in the field for another reason. The 37% probably aren't the people who moved into management consulting." You don't feel that there's a problem, based on the data you found. And you might be right, if you don't look at it at a macro-level. The big picture is confusing, however. Companies and government are crying out for more tech workers. They're all lobbying for an easier way to bring workers to the US (my country, Ireland, are also doing this). But wages for computer scientists, across the US, are flat. They've been stagnant for a decade. If some proportion of CS grads do not go into CS, typical market dynamics would suggest that the lack of supply will drive up wages, and entice them into the field. This isn't happening. In fact, some sizeable proportion can't find their first job, out of college, and don't work in the field again. Something is amiss. Another copy/pasted this from another reply of mine: "Lastly, there's a large supply of unemployed CS graduates in the US: http://www.epi.org/publication/pm195-stem-labor-shortages-microsoft-report-distorts/ http://www.epi.org/publication/pm195-stem-labor-shortages-mi... "