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Your remarks about "divisive ethic-neuveau-ghettos" with "communities insulating themselves rather than assimilating" just makes it worst. Part of the "social

Your remarks about "divisive ethic-neuveau-ghettos" with "communities insulating themselves rather than assimilating" just makes it worst. Part of the "social contract" when you immigrate to the US is to at least make an effort to join your new country. We aren't the Borg, but we would like to see you learn at least a little English, accept your new country, and generally participate. You are already most of the way there- you speak English. Your parent is reacting to communities of people who immigrate to the US, learn not one word of English, turn inwards and attempt to create Little Elbonia, including attempting to completely reshape government in Elbonia's image.

Squarel 12y ago
How much of an issue within the tech industry, or the visa type that is being discussed in the OP?
npsimons 12y ago
Exactly. We've already seen Islamists try to enforce sharia in England; if we had wanted a theocracy, we would have let the Christofascists take over long ago. And before anyone goes claiming oppression of differing cultures, the secular culture that is America is precisely the root cause of why many people want to to move there. Others in this thread have already mentioned things like misogyny, homophobia, etc, that while it's not a solved problem in America, isn't nearly as bad as it is in some other countries.
- degradas 12y ago
  From where I sit (Europe) America does not look like having a secular culture at all. Sure, you have the separation of church and state enshrined in your constitution, but in practice the country seems way too religious.
danudey 12y ago
How many tech companies apply for H1-B visas for developers who are unable to speak any English at all? Your post has such an overwhelming air of nationalistic, racist sentiment. "These foreigners come over here, they don't even speak english, and they take all our jobs". The reality is that most of the foreign developers I've met speak english and communicate at least as well as other developers we've hired here, and oftentimes speak even better english. Remember, not all H1-B visa holders are dirt-farming Indians who read Ruby on Rails for Dummies in their native language and got tired of farming themselves out on glance for $10/hr. A lot of them are from well-educated western countries - the Ireland, Britain, Canada, Mexico, Germany, etc. You're generalizing all immigrants into this offensively racist image you've got in your head, and it doesn't make any sense at all. Perhaps there are people like that where you live, but by and large the H1-B visa holders are well-educated, skilled, and speak English as well as people who have been American citizens for decades.
- d3fun 12y ago
  So you are calling all Indian developers are dirt-farming Indians and only the western countries have well educated developers?
- sliverstorm 12y ago
  Good lord, I'm not generalizing anything. I was explaining further the specific phenomenon (which does occur sometimes) that manticore_alpha was talking about. I didn't apply this phenomenon to anyone, nor make any statements about policy nor how it ought to impact policy... Or does the simple description of a phenomenon which sometimes happens, now mean I'm a jingoistic, nationalistic, racist dirtbag? I am in complete agreement that this phenomenon is very unlikely to happen with H1B workers, and I am completely familiar with the fact that many immigrants are well-educated, speak excellent English, and fully integrate into American society.
  - dasil003 12y ago
    The reason is because it's typically ignorant xenophobic racists who complain the loudest about x or y group not assimilating. Now I don't think this is you, but that's just the way the argument smells. Let's step back a minute: what is the big deal with people attempting to preserve their culture when they come to the US? Isn't it a free country? And materially I don't see how it harms anything because the American culture, derided thought it may be by some, is actually extremely alluring and powerful, so even if the parents are nostalgic for the old country the kids are going to gravitate towards assimilation. Where is the harm?
    - deleted 12y ago
      [deleted]
    - valar_m 12y ago
      This is a really great example of how powerful the dog whistle techniques used by racists can actually be. Your instincts picked up on something from silverstorm's comment, but a lack of concrete evidence made it very difficult to say out loud what you were actually thinking. You were forced to go from: this offensively racist image you've got in your head All the way back to: Now I don't think this is you, but that's just the way the argument smells. I went into silverstorm's use of dog whistle techniques a little deeper in my comment above, but the evolution of your exchange with him really demonstrates how effective it can be as a tool for perpetuating racist views with immunity from criticism. It is a strategy based on controlling the conversation and playing off of several deeply ingrained societal tendencies, and it works.
snowwrestler 12y ago
This is really a contract that some Americans would like to impose on other Americans. The U.S. is a free country; that's the social contract. People are free to live where they want, associate with whom they want, and speak whatever language they want. Other people are free to accomodate them to the degree they wish, or not. But the idea that you're not "really" American unless you fit some predefined set of characteristics is just a nasty attempt to impose one set of values on everyone.
- codeonfire 12y ago
  You are right. In America we deplore things like bribery, oppression of women, caste systems, rule of law, human trafficking, honor killings, etc. We will impose that social contract on anyone who migrates here. Even if you are Sir Elton John, you are just Elton John here. If you bring slave servants to the US and enslave them here, as has happened, you'll be thrown in prison. It's not about language.
  - ahomescu1 12y ago
    > In America we deplore things like [...], rule of law, [...] Is that supposed to be in there, or did you mean something else?
    - codeonfire 12y ago
      oops, was too early when I typed.
saalweachter 12y ago
Since when? The first three generations of my family in America spoke German. My home town was basically a group of people from a German town who up and moved to start a new town in the Midwest and went on living there as if nothing changed. Hundreds of Midwest towns and cities started the exact same way. Why is it different now?
- GFK_of_xmaspast 12y ago
  Because it's only ok when white people do it.
- hderms 12y ago
  Neither is more 'right' than the other, only that it's pointless to criticize people who are long-dead. It's important for people to realize that European immigrants did (and do) largely the same thing as other immigrants that people often criticize for not learning English, but we can't change the past. I don't believe these feelings are necessarily entirely rooted in racism, as I've heard plenty of people in Chicago complain about Polish immigrants unwillingness to speak English. I think it's more likely the feelings are a mix of racism, classism and additionally a sense of pride in American culture.
astigsen 12y ago
Obligatory xkcd: http://xkcd.com/84/ http://xkcd.com/84/
rbanffy 12y ago
I can't understand that attitude. The whole point of moving to another is to embrace the new country and learn from the experience. There is a lot more to the US than learning English. This is not just a change of address. I can say for myself, if I ever move to the US, I'd probably be end up as involved in politics as a non-citizen can be.
sampo 12y ago
> "communities of people who immigrate to the US, learn not one word of English, turn inwards and attempt to create Little Elbonia" TBH, it's also not so uncommon for Americans in Europe to make no effort to learn the local language, and to seek mostly the company of other Americans.
neindanke 12y ago
> Part of the "social contract" when you immigrate to the US is to at least make an effort to join your new country Huh? What social contract are you talking about? Don't use quotes as a goto escape. If there was actually a social contract, then in the valley we'd all be speaking Chumash, Mojave or something like that.

Squarel 12y ago

How much of an issue within the tech industry, or the visa type that is being discussed in the OP?

npsimons 12y ago

Exactly. We've already seen Islamists try to enforce sharia in England; if we had wanted a theocracy, we would have let the Christofascists take over long ago. And before anyone goes claiming oppression of differing cultures, the secular culture that is America is precisely the root cause of why many people want to to move there. Others in this thread have already mentioned things like misogyny, homophobia, etc, that while it's not a solved problem in America, isn't nearly as bad as it is in some other countries.

degradas 12y ago
From where I sit (Europe) America does not look like having a secular culture at all. Sure, you have the separation of church and state enshrined in your constitution, but in practice the country seems way too religious.

danudey 12y ago

How many tech companies apply for H1-B visas for developers who are unable to speak any English at all? Your post has such an overwhelming air of nationalistic, racist sentiment. "These foreigners come over here, they don't even speak english, and they take all our jobs". The reality is that most of the foreign developers I've met speak english and communicate at least as well as other developers we've hired here, and oftentimes speak even better english. Remember, not all H1-B visa holders are dirt-farming Indians who read Ruby on Rails for Dummies in their native language and got tired of farming themselves out on glance for $10/hr. A lot of them are from well-educated western countries - the Ireland, Britain, Canada, Mexico, Germany, etc. You're generalizing all immigrants into this offensively racist image you've got in your head, and it doesn't make any sense at all. Perhaps there are people like that where you live, but by and large the H1-B visa holders are well-educated, skilled, and speak English as well as people who have been American citizens for decades.

d3fun 12y ago
So you are calling all Indian developers are dirt-farming Indians and only the western countries have well educated developers?
sliverstorm 12y ago
Good lord, I'm not generalizing anything. I was explaining further the specific phenomenon (which does occur sometimes) that manticore_alpha was talking about. I didn't apply this phenomenon to anyone, nor make any statements about policy nor how it ought to impact policy... Or does the simple description of a phenomenon which sometimes happens, now mean I'm a jingoistic, nationalistic, racist dirtbag? I am in complete agreement that this phenomenon is very unlikely to happen with H1B workers, and I am completely familiar with the fact that many immigrants are well-educated, speak excellent English, and fully integrate into American society.
- dasil003 12y ago
  The reason is because it's typically ignorant xenophobic racists who complain the loudest about x or y group not assimilating. Now I don't think this is you, but that's just the way the argument smells. Let's step back a minute: what is the big deal with people attempting to preserve their culture when they come to the US? Isn't it a free country? And materially I don't see how it harms anything because the American culture, derided thought it may be by some, is actually extremely alluring and powerful, so even if the parents are nostalgic for the old country the kids are going to gravitate towards assimilation. Where is the harm?
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
  - valar_m 12y ago
    This is a really great example of how powerful the dog whistle techniques used by racists can actually be. Your instincts picked up on something from silverstorm's comment, but a lack of concrete evidence made it very difficult to say out loud what you were actually thinking. You were forced to go from: this offensively racist image you've got in your head All the way back to: Now I don't think this is you, but that's just the way the argument smells. I went into silverstorm's use of dog whistle techniques a little deeper in my comment above, but the evolution of your exchange with him really demonstrates how effective it can be as a tool for perpetuating racist views with immunity from criticism. It is a strategy based on controlling the conversation and playing off of several deeply ingrained societal tendencies, and it works.

snowwrestler 12y ago

This is really a contract that some Americans would like to impose on other Americans. The U.S. is a free country; that's the social contract. People are free to live where they want, associate with whom they want, and speak whatever language they want. Other people are free to accomodate them to the degree they wish, or not. But the idea that you're not "really" American unless you fit some predefined set of characteristics is just a nasty attempt to impose one set of values on everyone.

codeonfire 12y ago
You are right. In America we deplore things like bribery, oppression of women, caste systems, rule of law, human trafficking, honor killings, etc. We will impose that social contract on anyone who migrates here. Even if you are Sir Elton John, you are just Elton John here. If you bring slave servants to the US and enslave them here, as has happened, you'll be thrown in prison. It's not about language.
- ahomescu1 12y ago
  > In America we deplore things like [...], rule of law, [...] Is that supposed to be in there, or did you mean something else?
  - codeonfire 12y ago
    oops, was too early when I typed.

saalweachter 12y ago

Since when? The first three generations of my family in America spoke German. My home town was basically a group of people from a German town who up and moved to start a new town in the Midwest and went on living there as if nothing changed. Hundreds of Midwest towns and cities started the exact same way. Why is it different now?

GFK_of_xmaspast 12y ago
Because it's only ok when white people do it.
hderms 12y ago
Neither is more 'right' than the other, only that it's pointless to criticize people who are long-dead. It's important for people to realize that European immigrants did (and do) largely the same thing as other immigrants that people often criticize for not learning English, but we can't change the past. I don't believe these feelings are necessarily entirely rooted in racism, as I've heard plenty of people in Chicago complain about Polish immigrants unwillingness to speak English. I think it's more likely the feelings are a mix of racism, classism and additionally a sense of pride in American culture.

astigsen 12y ago

Obligatory xkcd: http://xkcd.com/84/ http://xkcd.com/84/

rbanffy 12y ago

I can't understand that attitude. The whole point of moving to another is to embrace the new country and learn from the experience. There is a lot more to the US than learning English. This is not just a change of address. I can say for myself, if I ever move to the US, I'd probably be end up as involved in politics as a non-citizen can be.

sampo 12y ago

> "communities of people who immigrate to the US, learn not one word of English, turn inwards and attempt to create Little Elbonia" TBH, it's also not so uncommon for Americans in Europe to make no effort to learn the local language, and to seek mostly the company of other Americans.

neindanke 12y ago

> Part of the "social contract" when you immigrate to the US is to at least make an effort to join your new country Huh? What social contract are you talking about? Don't use quotes as a goto escape. If there was actually a social contract, then in the valley we'd all be speaking Chumash, Mojave or something like that.