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> "H1B Visas exist for one reason, and one reason only" ; "it's simple reality" ; "Without a doubt" ; "It happens all-the-fucking-time" ; "There's absolutely no

> "H1B Visas exist for one reason, and one reason only" ; "it's simple reality" ; "Without a doubt" ; "It happens all-the-fucking-time" ; "There's absolutely no talent shortage in the Bay Area" Presenting something as a fact doesn't make it one. You're basically saying that American tech companies should only hire Americans. That the facebook, Google, Mozilla, ... shouldn't hire smart people from other countries. As someone who doesn't live in the US but would like to work in this industry, I will probably have to relocate to the US (either in the Bay Area or New York). Do you mean that offers I've got in the past were because I'm "cheap labor"? (as in "Let's fly you from the other side of the world, pay for the crazy high VISA fees, pay for relocation, ... and then pay you the same as those that already live in the Bay Area") Your remarks about "divisive ethic-neuveau-ghettos" with "communities insulating themselves rather than assimilating" just makes it worst. I'm not even going to guess who the "We" in your message refers to.

eli_gottlieb 12y ago
>You're basically saying that American tech companies should only hire Americans. That the facebook, Google, Mozilla, ... shouldn't hire smart people from other countries. No, the system just needs to be reformed. And I've seen the right reform proposal often enough to be circulating it myself: * The government can give out N visas in an auction. Firms bid via legally-binding salary offers. The N highest salaries bid get the visas, and the government takes a small additional payroll tax as the only fee. * The visas adhere to the workers, not the companies. That will greatly improve the current system for the workers while enabling everyone genuinely in need of high-skilled labor to get it. Of course, it's worth noting that some degree of so-called "nativism" is just part of the social contract. It's the price we pay for having a society that enforces cooperative coordination among citizens instead of letting everything be run by uncoordinated, law-of-the-jungle free-for-alls.
- exelius 12y ago
  > * The government can give out N visas in an auction. Firms bid via legally-binding salary offers. The N highest salaries bid get the visas, and the government takes a small additional payroll tax as the only fee. This would be doomed to fail. Professional services firms can outbid basically everyone because they can turn around and bill that person out at 5x their salary. The visas will never adhere to the workers for one simple reason: the visa process exists to benefit the companies, not the workers. The workers are not US citizens and have no leverage with the US government. The visa programs only exist because the US-based companies want them - and those companies DO have leverage with the US government.
  - rayiner 12y ago
    > This would be doomed to fail. Professional services firms can outbid basically everyone because they can turn around and bill that person out at 5x their salary. So what? Shouldn't the companies that can create the most value from the employee be the ones that get to hire them?
    - exelius 12y ago
      I wouldn't say that professional services firms really create the most value - far from it actually. They're just able to pay more because there's relatively little risk involved for them.
      - x0x0 12y ago
        yet you admitted it 3 comments up. pay = value.
        exelius 12y ago
        It's two different markets - professional services firms have far greater negotiating power and sales forces than individuals.
        x0x0 12y ago
        If under the proposed system (h1bs granted in descending sort order of salary), product firms were losing out to professional services firms, then the product firms are free to pay their employees more. If they don't create enough value to justify paying more, well, then the system works as designed.
        exelius 12y ago
        They would - but the principal benefit these sort of H1Bs provide is a communication conduit back to offshore labor pools.
      - 12y ago
- IndianAstronaut 12y ago
  >Of course, it's worth noting that some degree of so-called "nativism" is just part of the social contract. It's the price we pay for having a society that enforces cooperative coordination among citizens instead of letting everything be run by uncoordinated, law-of-the-jungle free-for-alls. You realize that skilled immigrants are going to be the most likely to assimilate into American culture. They will not form ghettos or enclaves(unless there is of course white flight).
  - eli_gottlieb 12y ago
    Well yes, of course. This is why the proposal is designed to make absolutely sure we bring in skilled, high-value immigrants. It's a filter, not a fence.
- jameshart 12y ago
  How do you reconcile 'legally binding salary offers' to adhering the visa to the worker? How long is the company obliged to pay the visa bid rate? What if the company becomes financially incapable of paying the visa bid rate? (yes, demonstrating financial solvency of the employer is part of the visa sponsorship process, but circumstances change). If the worker moves to another company, is that company required to pay the bid rate? I can imagine a 'simple' scheme like that leading to all kinds of shell-game shenanigans where high bids are used to win the visas to bring workers in, then through sleight of hand the worker is transferred to a different job at a lower wage...
  - btbuilder 12y ago
    Terms of visas are normally verified at visa renewal time which for H1B is after 3 years.
ep103 12y ago
You're entire post is based on a strawman argument. OP didn't say that companies shouldn't hire non-American talent. He said companies should hire non-American talent through traditional immigration proceedings, and that the H1B program lends itself to an exploitative employer-laborer relationship, that ultimately serves to unfairly lower industry pay rates.
- ntakasaki 12y ago
  >He said companies should hire non-American talent through traditional immigration proceedings, What traditional immigration proceedings are you people talking about? Get a company employee to marry him/her and bring them here on a green card?
  - LLWM 12y ago
    Maybe he means "move to Canada first"?
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- mynameisvlad 12y ago
  > traditional immigration proceedings So... An H1-B. Because that is essentially your only choice for temporary residency while waiting the many years it takes for an EB-3 (and months/years for 1/2) to go through. Unless the applicant is from Canada, where you can choose to go the TN route but have to be careful because EB is intent to immigrate, or an L-1 if they're an international transfer. The H1-B is a decent visa for the purpose its intended to serve, as a way to get immigrants here who would otherwise have to wait years to start working while a permanent residency application goes through. It has its shortcomings, but it's a whole lot better than other routes you could go through.
- jbooth 12y ago
  Traditional immigration proceedings? You mean the system where if you're from China or India, you have to wait 3-5X as long for a green card as people from western europe? Yeah, that system sounds great. Dunno why people in software engineering of all industries would have a problem with that system.
sliverstorm 12y ago
Your remarks about "divisive ethic-neuveau-ghettos" with "communities insulating themselves rather than assimilating" just makes it worst. Part of the "social contract" when you immigrate to the US is to at least make an effort to join your new country. We aren't the Borg, but we would like to see you learn at least a little English, accept your new country, and generally participate. You are already most of the way there- you speak English. Your parent is reacting to communities of people who immigrate to the US, learn not one word of English, turn inwards and attempt to create Little Elbonia, including attempting to completely reshape government in Elbonia's image.
- Squarel 12y ago
  How much of an issue within the tech industry, or the visa type that is being discussed in the OP?
- npsimons 12y ago
  Exactly. We've already seen Islamists try to enforce sharia in England; if we had wanted a theocracy, we would have let the Christofascists take over long ago. And before anyone goes claiming oppression of differing cultures, the secular culture that is America is precisely the root cause of why many people want to to move there. Others in this thread have already mentioned things like misogyny, homophobia, etc, that while it's not a solved problem in America, isn't nearly as bad as it is in some other countries.
  - degradas 12y ago
    From where I sit (Europe) America does not look like having a secular culture at all. Sure, you have the separation of church and state enshrined in your constitution, but in practice the country seems way too religious.
- danudey 12y ago
  How many tech companies apply for H1-B visas for developers who are unable to speak any English at all? Your post has such an overwhelming air of nationalistic, racist sentiment. "These foreigners come over here, they don't even speak english, and they take all our jobs". The reality is that most of the foreign developers I've met speak english and communicate at least as well as other developers we've hired here, and oftentimes speak even better english. Remember, not all H1-B visa holders are dirt-farming Indians who read Ruby on Rails for Dummies in their native language and got tired of farming themselves out on glance for $10/hr. A lot of them are from well-educated western countries - the Ireland, Britain, Canada, Mexico, Germany, etc. You're generalizing all immigrants into this offensively racist image you've got in your head, and it doesn't make any sense at all. Perhaps there are people like that where you live, but by and large the H1-B visa holders are well-educated, skilled, and speak English as well as people who have been American citizens for decades.
mabbo 12y ago
Come to Toronto. Amazon is here, and growing. Lots of other start ups and mid-sized companies. Canada is way less insane about visa hoops to jump through. We're pretty friendly, and the crime rate is low (our new Mayor doesn't do crack or hang out with gangsters). Most importantly, we're a country and city that likes immigration of smart people who want to earn high salaries, and pay our slightly-higher-than-America taxes.
- pm90 12y ago
  Well, I have actually been considering a move, not just because of Immigration, but because of all of Canada's natural beauty. I also kinda like snow and cold weather and maple syrup. Here is one important question though: is it a city that you would recommend for young people (in their twenties)? Or is it nicer once you have a family and are looking to settle down etc.? And besides Amazon, is there any demand for tech workers over there?
  - analyst74 12y ago
    Toronto is the biggest city in Canada and the industrial center, lots of different sectors and jobs, thriving start-up scene, and all the things other major cities would offer. Biggest problem you'll face is that we mix-use metric and imperial units, i.e. pounds for weight, feet for height, celsius for temperature, meter for distance.
    - maxxxxx 12y ago
      And you need some warm clothing!
- nojvek 12y ago
  In Canada currently. The salaries just suck compared to states. Yes the visa hoops are less but living expenses in cities like Vancouver will suck everything out of your pocket.
  - benfrederickson 12y ago
threatofrain 12y ago
The commentator was not discussing immigration wholly; they are discussing H1B. There are some good reasons to suspect why H1B is an unfair tool. For example, H1B immigrants cannot easily switch employers, and do so with some appreciably elevated risk or cost. Or the fact that H1B wages are enforced by law, rather than competition, and that it's very difficult to bring legal action. If H1B immigrants could switch around without consequence to their immigration or employment prospects, then this wouldn't happen, but I suspect that companies wouldn't support something like that. I think that employers already have the edge on workers in general because they have more information, and because many Americans feel that specific talk of income is invasive or rude, and thus American workers don't really cooperate with each other for strategy; or at least it seems tech workers don't. The specific economic impairments placed upon H1B immigrants, even if written by sincere and well-meaning hearts, unfortunately means that these people are ripe for exploitation without much serious legitimate recourse. I think that assets and opportunities which may be profitably and predictably exploited (and well known in our case), will probably be exploited up to the border where it's no longer profitable to exploit.

eli_gottlieb 12y ago

>You're basically saying that American tech companies should only hire Americans. That the facebook, Google, Mozilla, ... shouldn't hire smart people from other countries. No, the system just needs to be reformed. And I've seen the right reform proposal often enough to be circulating it myself: * The government can give out N visas in an auction. Firms bid via legally-binding salary offers. The N highest salaries bid get the visas, and the government takes a small additional payroll tax as the only fee. * The visas adhere to the workers, not the companies. That will greatly improve the current system for the workers while enabling everyone genuinely in need of high-skilled labor to get it. Of course, it's worth noting that some degree of so-called "nativism" is just part of the social contract. It's the price we pay for having a society that enforces cooperative coordination among citizens instead of letting everything be run by uncoordinated, law-of-the-jungle free-for-alls.

exelius 12y ago
> * The government can give out N visas in an auction. Firms bid via legally-binding salary offers. The N highest salaries bid get the visas, and the government takes a small additional payroll tax as the only fee. This would be doomed to fail. Professional services firms can outbid basically everyone because they can turn around and bill that person out at 5x their salary. The visas will never adhere to the workers for one simple reason: the visa process exists to benefit the companies, not the workers. The workers are not US citizens and have no leverage with the US government. The visa programs only exist because the US-based companies want them - and those companies DO have leverage with the US government.
- rayiner 12y ago
  > This would be doomed to fail. Professional services firms can outbid basically everyone because they can turn around and bill that person out at 5x their salary. So what? Shouldn't the companies that can create the most value from the employee be the ones that get to hire them?
  - exelius 12y ago
    I wouldn't say that professional services firms really create the most value - far from it actually. They're just able to pay more because there's relatively little risk involved for them.
    - x0x0 12y ago
      yet you admitted it 3 comments up. pay = value.
      - exelius 12y ago
        It's two different markets - professional services firms have far greater negotiating power and sales forces than individuals.
        x0x0 12y ago
        If under the proposed system (h1bs granted in descending sort order of salary), product firms were losing out to professional services firms, then the product firms are free to pay their employees more. If they don't create enough value to justify paying more, well, then the system works as designed.
        exelius 12y ago
        They would - but the principal benefit these sort of H1Bs provide is a communication conduit back to offshore labor pools.
    - 12y ago
IndianAstronaut 12y ago
>Of course, it's worth noting that some degree of so-called "nativism" is just part of the social contract. It's the price we pay for having a society that enforces cooperative coordination among citizens instead of letting everything be run by uncoordinated, law-of-the-jungle free-for-alls. You realize that skilled immigrants are going to be the most likely to assimilate into American culture. They will not form ghettos or enclaves(unless there is of course white flight).
- eli_gottlieb 12y ago
  Well yes, of course. This is why the proposal is designed to make absolutely sure we bring in skilled, high-value immigrants. It's a filter, not a fence.
jameshart 12y ago
How do you reconcile 'legally binding salary offers' to adhering the visa to the worker? How long is the company obliged to pay the visa bid rate? What if the company becomes financially incapable of paying the visa bid rate? (yes, demonstrating financial solvency of the employer is part of the visa sponsorship process, but circumstances change). If the worker moves to another company, is that company required to pay the bid rate? I can imagine a 'simple' scheme like that leading to all kinds of shell-game shenanigans where high bids are used to win the visas to bring workers in, then through sleight of hand the worker is transferred to a different job at a lower wage...
- btbuilder 12y ago
  Terms of visas are normally verified at visa renewal time which for H1B is after 3 years.

ep103 12y ago

You're entire post is based on a strawman argument. OP didn't say that companies shouldn't hire non-American talent. He said companies should hire non-American talent through traditional immigration proceedings, and that the H1B program lends itself to an exploitative employer-laborer relationship, that ultimately serves to unfairly lower industry pay rates.

ntakasaki 12y ago
>He said companies should hire non-American talent through traditional immigration proceedings, What traditional immigration proceedings are you people talking about? Get a company employee to marry him/her and bring them here on a green card?
- LLWM 12y ago
  Maybe he means "move to Canada first"?
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
mynameisvlad 12y ago
> traditional immigration proceedings So... An H1-B. Because that is essentially your only choice for temporary residency while waiting the many years it takes for an EB-3 (and months/years for 1/2) to go through. Unless the applicant is from Canada, where you can choose to go the TN route but have to be careful because EB is intent to immigrate, or an L-1 if they're an international transfer. The H1-B is a decent visa for the purpose its intended to serve, as a way to get immigrants here who would otherwise have to wait years to start working while a permanent residency application goes through. It has its shortcomings, but it's a whole lot better than other routes you could go through.
jbooth 12y ago
Traditional immigration proceedings? You mean the system where if you're from China or India, you have to wait 3-5X as long for a green card as people from western europe? Yeah, that system sounds great. Dunno why people in software engineering of all industries would have a problem with that system.

sliverstorm 12y ago

Your remarks about "divisive ethic-neuveau-ghettos" with "communities insulating themselves rather than assimilating" just makes it worst. Part of the "social contract" when you immigrate to the US is to at least make an effort to join your new country. We aren't the Borg, but we would like to see you learn at least a little English, accept your new country, and generally participate. You are already most of the way there- you speak English. Your parent is reacting to communities of people who immigrate to the US, learn not one word of English, turn inwards and attempt to create Little Elbonia, including attempting to completely reshape government in Elbonia's image.

Squarel 12y ago
How much of an issue within the tech industry, or the visa type that is being discussed in the OP?
npsimons 12y ago
Exactly. We've already seen Islamists try to enforce sharia in England; if we had wanted a theocracy, we would have let the Christofascists take over long ago. And before anyone goes claiming oppression of differing cultures, the secular culture that is America is precisely the root cause of why many people want to to move there. Others in this thread have already mentioned things like misogyny, homophobia, etc, that while it's not a solved problem in America, isn't nearly as bad as it is in some other countries.
- degradas 12y ago
  From where I sit (Europe) America does not look like having a secular culture at all. Sure, you have the separation of church and state enshrined in your constitution, but in practice the country seems way too religious.
danudey 12y ago
How many tech companies apply for H1-B visas for developers who are unable to speak any English at all? Your post has such an overwhelming air of nationalistic, racist sentiment. "These foreigners come over here, they don't even speak english, and they take all our jobs". The reality is that most of the foreign developers I've met speak english and communicate at least as well as other developers we've hired here, and oftentimes speak even better english. Remember, not all H1-B visa holders are dirt-farming Indians who read Ruby on Rails for Dummies in their native language and got tired of farming themselves out on glance for $10/hr. A lot of them are from well-educated western countries - the Ireland, Britain, Canada, Mexico, Germany, etc. You're generalizing all immigrants into this offensively racist image you've got in your head, and it doesn't make any sense at all. Perhaps there are people like that where you live, but by and large the H1-B visa holders are well-educated, skilled, and speak English as well as people who have been American citizens for decades.

mabbo 12y ago

Come to Toronto. Amazon is here, and growing. Lots of other start ups and mid-sized companies. Canada is way less insane about visa hoops to jump through. We're pretty friendly, and the crime rate is low (our new Mayor doesn't do crack or hang out with gangsters). Most importantly, we're a country and city that likes immigration of smart people who want to earn high salaries, and pay our slightly-higher-than-America taxes.

pm90 12y ago
Well, I have actually been considering a move, not just because of Immigration, but because of all of Canada's natural beauty. I also kinda like snow and cold weather and maple syrup. Here is one important question though: is it a city that you would recommend for young people (in their twenties)? Or is it nicer once you have a family and are looking to settle down etc.? And besides Amazon, is there any demand for tech workers over there?
- analyst74 12y ago
  Toronto is the biggest city in Canada and the industrial center, lots of different sectors and jobs, thriving start-up scene, and all the things other major cities would offer. Biggest problem you'll face is that we mix-use metric and imperial units, i.e. pounds for weight, feet for height, celsius for temperature, meter for distance.
  - maxxxxx 12y ago
    And you need some warm clothing!
nojvek 12y ago
In Canada currently. The salaries just suck compared to states. Yes the visa hoops are less but living expenses in cities like Vancouver will suck everything out of your pocket.
- benfrederickson 12y ago

threatofrain 12y ago

The commentator was not discussing immigration wholly; they are discussing H1B. There are some good reasons to suspect why H1B is an unfair tool. For example, H1B immigrants cannot easily switch employers, and do so with some appreciably elevated risk or cost. Or the fact that H1B wages are enforced by law, rather than competition, and that it's very difficult to bring legal action. If H1B immigrants could switch around without consequence to their immigration or employment prospects, then this wouldn't happen, but I suspect that companies wouldn't support something like that. I think that employers already have the edge on workers in general because they have more information, and because many Americans feel that specific talk of income is invasive or rude, and thus American workers don't really cooperate with each other for strategy; or at least it seems tech workers don't. The specific economic impairments placed upon H1B immigrants, even if written by sincere and well-meaning hearts, unfortunately means that these people are ripe for exploitation without much serious legitimate recourse. I think that assets and opportunities which may be profitably and predictably exploited (and well known in our case), will probably be exploited up to the border where it's no longer profitable to exploit.