4 ms·

Any evidence? Otherwise I don't believe you.

by illumen 12y ago

anjc 12y ago
There's lots of evidence out there. Probably the most obvious signal for you should be that companies are complaining about a lack of workers, but wages are stagnant. Or another signal might be the fact that 50% of STEM grads have to work in unrelated industries because of an inability to find work in tech. If you want more proof of funniness: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCbFEgFajGU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCbFEgFajGU Or if you want proof of major tech companies in the US colluding to suppress wages, look up everything related to this: http://www.justice.gov/atr/cases/f262600/262654.htm http://www.justice.gov/atr/cases/f262600/262654.htm If you want proof of US companies paying slave wages in the US, etc etc. The funniness goes on and on.
- snowwrestler 12y ago
  Do you have a citation for "50% of STEM grads have to work in unrelated industries because of an inability to find work in tech"? Many STEM graduates choose not to work in tech, for example math majors who go into finance, or chem majors who go into consulting. And, many STEM grads are not actually qualified to work in tech. A BS in biology is certainly a STEM degree but that person is not likely to help scale your Rails application.
  - anjc 12y ago
    Check this and the citing papers for it: http://eric.ed.gov/?id=ED498867 http://eric.ed.gov/?id=ED498867 "Purported labor market shortages for scientists and engineers are anecdotal and also not supported by the available evidence" "the education system produces qualified graduates far in excess of demand: S&E occupations make up only about one-twentieth of all workers, and each year there are more than three times as many S&E four-year college graduates as S&E job openings" This article links to a bunch of other papers: http://spectrum.ieee.org/at-work/education/the-stem-crisis-is-a-myth http://spectrum.ieee.org/at-work/education/the-stem-crisis-i... "The departure of STEM graduates to other fields starts early. In 2008, the NSF surveyed STEM graduates who’d earned bachelor’s and master’s degrees in 2006 and 2007. It found that 2 out of 10 were already working in non-STEM fields. And 10 years after receiving a STEM degree, 58 percent of STEM graduates had left the field" Some data from the economic policy institute (this is the first place i could re-find it): http://www.rit.edu/news/pdfs/CHE_Hira.pdf http://www.rit.edu/news/pdfs/CHE_Hira.pdf Of the 50% of engineering graduates not working in engineering, 40% of CS grads not in CS, (35% total are working in totally unrelated fields), ~50% are not working in their fields because of pay and conditions, 37% are not working in their fields because they can't find work, and 10% are not working in the field for another reason. The 37% probably aren't the people who moved into management consulting. Certainly some STEM grads may not be qualified to work in tech, but i'd argue that a biology major would easily adapt to working in the average web development shop. And certainly a mathematician or engineer would (obviously). Lastly, there's a large supply of unemployed CS graduates in the US: http://www.epi.org/publication/pm195-stem-labor-shortages-microsoft-report-distorts/ http://www.epi.org/publication/pm195-stem-labor-shortages-mi...
- jahmaiosullivan 12y ago
  So interns are getting paid astronomical amounts but there are no shortage of workers? Something doesn't add up here.
  - geebee 12y ago
    Interns at elite major law firms earn the annual equivalent of up to $160,000 a year. http://www.thelawstreetjournal.com/1l-2l/law-school-internship-pay-rates/ http://www.thelawstreetjournal.com/1l-2l/law-school-internsh... MBA summer interns from elite schools can equal or exceed this as well. We don't talk about a "shortage" of lawyers or MBAs, though because we know that this isn't typical. Also, for some reason, there seems to be a stronger cultural objection to engineers getting paid as well as lawyers, MBAs, or physicians. I think it's partly because when you say "lawyer" or "physician", people think of a serious, middle aged person with grey hair. When you say "programmer", people think of a young socially inept person. I don't agree with the stereotype at all, but I think it's part of why people would be so quick to conclude that an unobjectionable salary for a lawyer is "astronomical" for a developer. I'd also say that comparing software development intern salaries at well paying companies probably represents developer pay in its best light. I'm not saying it's misleading or inaccurate - it's a perfectly valid snapshot. But software developers draw higher salaries out of the gate, but may fade in the stretch. Comparing what career developers earn at age 50 with their lawyer or doctor friends would probably give you a different picture that should also be considered. Ultimately, look at the general data - in San Francisco, the median salary for a software developer is just a little more than it is for a dental hygienist and a little lower than for a registered nurse. Yet many people feel that this indicates a severe shortage - I agree something doesn't add up here, but to me, the evidence suggests no particular shortage of developers.

Any evidence? Otherwise I don't believe you.

by illumen 12y ago

Any evidence? Otherwise I don't believe you.

anjc 12y ago

There's lots of evidence out there. Probably the most obvious signal for you should be that companies are complaining about a lack of workers, but wages are stagnant. Or another signal might be the fact that 50% of STEM grads have to work in unrelated industries because of an inability to find work in tech. If you want more proof of funniness: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCbFEgFajGU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCbFEgFajGU Or if you want proof of major tech companies in the US colluding to suppress wages, look up everything related to this: http://www.justice.gov/atr/cases/f262600/262654.htm http://www.justice.gov/atr/cases/f262600/262654.htm If you want proof of US companies paying slave wages in the US, etc etc. The funniness goes on and on.

snowwrestler 12y ago
Do you have a citation for "50% of STEM grads have to work in unrelated industries because of an inability to find work in tech"? Many STEM graduates choose not to work in tech, for example math majors who go into finance, or chem majors who go into consulting. And, many STEM grads are not actually qualified to work in tech. A BS in biology is certainly a STEM degree but that person is not likely to help scale your Rails application.
- anjc 12y ago
  Check this and the citing papers for it: http://eric.ed.gov/?id=ED498867 http://eric.ed.gov/?id=ED498867 "Purported labor market shortages for scientists and engineers are anecdotal and also not supported by the available evidence" "the education system produces qualified graduates far in excess of demand: S&E occupations make up only about one-twentieth of all workers, and each year there are more than three times as many S&E four-year college graduates as S&E job openings" This article links to a bunch of other papers: http://spectrum.ieee.org/at-work/education/the-stem-crisis-is-a-myth http://spectrum.ieee.org/at-work/education/the-stem-crisis-i... "The departure of STEM graduates to other fields starts early. In 2008, the NSF surveyed STEM graduates who’d earned bachelor’s and master’s degrees in 2006 and 2007. It found that 2 out of 10 were already working in non-STEM fields. And 10 years after receiving a STEM degree, 58 percent of STEM graduates had left the field" Some data from the economic policy institute (this is the first place i could re-find it): http://www.rit.edu/news/pdfs/CHE_Hira.pdf http://www.rit.edu/news/pdfs/CHE_Hira.pdf Of the 50% of engineering graduates not working in engineering, 40% of CS grads not in CS, (35% total are working in totally unrelated fields), ~50% are not working in their fields because of pay and conditions, 37% are not working in their fields because they can't find work, and 10% are not working in the field for another reason. The 37% probably aren't the people who moved into management consulting. Certainly some STEM grads may not be qualified to work in tech, but i'd argue that a biology major would easily adapt to working in the average web development shop. And certainly a mathematician or engineer would (obviously). Lastly, there's a large supply of unemployed CS graduates in the US: http://www.epi.org/publication/pm195-stem-labor-shortages-microsoft-report-distorts/ http://www.epi.org/publication/pm195-stem-labor-shortages-mi...
jahmaiosullivan 12y ago
So interns are getting paid astronomical amounts but there are no shortage of workers? Something doesn't add up here.
- geebee 12y ago
  Interns at elite major law firms earn the annual equivalent of up to $160,000 a year. http://www.thelawstreetjournal.com/1l-2l/law-school-internship-pay-rates/ http://www.thelawstreetjournal.com/1l-2l/law-school-internsh... MBA summer interns from elite schools can equal or exceed this as well. We don't talk about a "shortage" of lawyers or MBAs, though because we know that this isn't typical. Also, for some reason, there seems to be a stronger cultural objection to engineers getting paid as well as lawyers, MBAs, or physicians. I think it's partly because when you say "lawyer" or "physician", people think of a serious, middle aged person with grey hair. When you say "programmer", people think of a young socially inept person. I don't agree with the stereotype at all, but I think it's part of why people would be so quick to conclude that an unobjectionable salary for a lawyer is "astronomical" for a developer. I'd also say that comparing software development intern salaries at well paying companies probably represents developer pay in its best light. I'm not saying it's misleading or inaccurate - it's a perfectly valid snapshot. But software developers draw higher salaries out of the gate, but may fade in the stretch. Comparing what career developers earn at age 50 with their lawyer or doctor friends would probably give you a different picture that should also be considered. Ultimately, look at the general data - in San Francisco, the median salary for a software developer is just a little more than it is for a dental hygienist and a little lower than for a registered nurse. Yet many people feel that this indicates a severe shortage - I agree something doesn't add up here, but to me, the evidence suggests no particular shortage of developers.