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>There's absolutely no talent shortage in the Bay Area, provided you can pay But this is precisely what defines an economic shortage. There's no shortage of a

>There's absolutely no talent shortage in the Bay Area, provided you can pay But this is precisely what defines an economic shortage. There's no shortage of anything, if the price offered is right. I wonder if the discrepancy between supply and demand for labour in the Valley has to do with the fact that, unlike most other industries[1], so many companies aren't making money, and hence can't pay, but still demand much labour? It seems like labour shortages are built into the system. [1] Speculation. What are some examples of companies with billion-dollar valuations and no-profits, outside SV?

x0x0 12y ago
Right, so there's no shortage. I get that there's plenty of demand for highly skilled engineers that want to work for $80k and a tiny handful of lottery tickets. It doesn't mean we need to further help the valley avoid the consequences of a lack of investment in domestic education, or their wild irresponsibility with respect to housing and transport issues in the bay.
- StylusEater 12y ago
  > It doesn't mean we need to further help the valley avoid the consequences of a lack of investment in domestic education, or their wild irresponsibility with respect to housing and transport issues in the bay. Exactly!
3pt14159 12y ago
Any position paying more than minimum wage is a position with an economic shortage. I'm for easy immigration, but let's not pretend that this isn't going to reduce tech worker wages in the area. (In the long run though, it could help, since you tend to get more specialization and scale when large numbers of a certain type of profession are congregated around a certain area).
- hnnewguy 12y ago
  >but let's not pretend that this isn't going to reduce tech worker wages in the area Right, I don't dispute this. But whether this is good or bad depends on whether you are buying or selling the labour.
stretchwithme 12y ago
Definition of shortage on Google: a state or situation in which something needed cannot be obtained in sufficient amounts. Doesn't mention anything about not paying the market price. Those not willing to pay the market price can't buy a loaf of bread. It is prices that incentivize people to provide what we need. And when the bubble pops, prices will tell people the opposite. Either way, its just a market condition that entrepreneurs have to deal with, just as they deal with all of the other things that change all the time. It is unlikely a robot will ever be able to do the job of entrepreneur.
- hnnewguy 12y ago
  >Doesn't mention anything about not paying the market price. That's the flaw in that definition. Price is the most important factor. Edit: If price isn't accounted for then what isn't in a shortage at prices just greater than free?
  - unprepare 12y ago
    A shortage is a lack of supply, a company unwilling to pay above $X is not a shortage of supply, it is a shortage of demand. If we have a shortage of carrots, we dont have enough carrots at ANY price. If people are unwilling to pay 5$/LB for carrots but thats what they cost in the store, that is not a shortage. What this discussion is about is substitute goods[1] replacing standard goods. In this case US workers are the standard goods, and they are being replaced by foreign workers, or substitute goods at lower cost. [1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substitute_good http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substitute_good
    - hnnewguy 12y ago
      >A shortage is a lack of supply No, a shortage is the discrepancy between the quantity supplied and quantity demanded at a given price. When wages offered are too low, there is a shortage of labour supply. Increase those wages and that shortage disappears. >If we have a shortage of carrots, we dont have enough carrots at ANY price. This is simply not true. >If people are unwilling to pay 5$/LB for carrots but thats what they cost in the store, that is not a shortage. The shortage of carrot occurs at every price below $5/lb. You cannot talk about shortages in the economic sense without prices. Period. I'm not sure why people are insistent on arguing the semantics of the word "shortage", rather than the far more interesting supply/demand dynamics underpinning the markets being discussed.
ForHackernews 12y ago
> so many companies aren't making money, and hence can't pay, but still demand much labour? Maybe most of those companies shouldn't exist, then. Isn't that how capitalism is supposed to work?
duaneb 12y ago
The shortage of talent in the bay area probably has more to do with the ridiculous concentration of startups there. Maybe if people chose not to live in one of the most expensive areas in the country, with the most competitive labor markets, they wouldn't need to leave. There are oodles upon oodles of skilled CS graduates (yes, in the US!) that aren't moving to the bay area....
briandear 12y ago
Amazon.com has no profits, according to their balance sheet.
anjc 12y ago
> It seems like labour shortages are built into the system. It certainly was: http://pando.com/2014/03/22/revealed-apple-and-googles-wage-fixing-cartel-involved-dozens-more-companies-over-one-million-employees/ http://pando.com/2014/03/22/revealed-apple-and-googles-wage-...

x0x0 12y ago

Right, so there's no shortage. I get that there's plenty of demand for highly skilled engineers that want to work for $80k and a tiny handful of lottery tickets. It doesn't mean we need to further help the valley avoid the consequences of a lack of investment in domestic education, or their wild irresponsibility with respect to housing and transport issues in the bay.

StylusEater 12y ago
> It doesn't mean we need to further help the valley avoid the consequences of a lack of investment in domestic education, or their wild irresponsibility with respect to housing and transport issues in the bay. Exactly!

3pt14159 12y ago

Any position paying more than minimum wage is a position with an economic shortage. I'm for easy immigration, but let's not pretend that this isn't going to reduce tech worker wages in the area. (In the long run though, it could help, since you tend to get more specialization and scale when large numbers of a certain type of profession are congregated around a certain area).

hnnewguy 12y ago
>but let's not pretend that this isn't going to reduce tech worker wages in the area Right, I don't dispute this. But whether this is good or bad depends on whether you are buying or selling the labour.

stretchwithme 12y ago

Definition of shortage on Google: a state or situation in which something needed cannot be obtained in sufficient amounts. Doesn't mention anything about not paying the market price. Those not willing to pay the market price can't buy a loaf of bread. It is prices that incentivize people to provide what we need. And when the bubble pops, prices will tell people the opposite. Either way, its just a market condition that entrepreneurs have to deal with, just as they deal with all of the other things that change all the time. It is unlikely a robot will ever be able to do the job of entrepreneur.

hnnewguy 12y ago
>Doesn't mention anything about not paying the market price. That's the flaw in that definition. Price is the most important factor. Edit: If price isn't accounted for then what isn't in a shortage at prices just greater than free?
- unprepare 12y ago
  A shortage is a lack of supply, a company unwilling to pay above $X is not a shortage of supply, it is a shortage of demand. If we have a shortage of carrots, we dont have enough carrots at ANY price. If people are unwilling to pay 5$/LB for carrots but thats what they cost in the store, that is not a shortage. What this discussion is about is substitute goods[1] replacing standard goods. In this case US workers are the standard goods, and they are being replaced by foreign workers, or substitute goods at lower cost. [1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substitute_good http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substitute_good
  - hnnewguy 12y ago
    >A shortage is a lack of supply No, a shortage is the discrepancy between the quantity supplied and quantity demanded at a given price. When wages offered are too low, there is a shortage of labour supply. Increase those wages and that shortage disappears. >If we have a shortage of carrots, we dont have enough carrots at ANY price. This is simply not true. >If people are unwilling to pay 5$/LB for carrots but thats what they cost in the store, that is not a shortage. The shortage of carrot occurs at every price below $5/lb. You cannot talk about shortages in the economic sense without prices. Period. I'm not sure why people are insistent on arguing the semantics of the word "shortage", rather than the far more interesting supply/demand dynamics underpinning the markets being discussed.

ForHackernews 12y ago

> so many companies aren't making money, and hence can't pay, but still demand much labour? Maybe most of those companies shouldn't exist, then. Isn't that how capitalism is supposed to work?

duaneb 12y ago

The shortage of talent in the bay area probably has more to do with the ridiculous concentration of startups there. Maybe if people chose not to live in one of the most expensive areas in the country, with the most competitive labor markets, they wouldn't need to leave. There are oodles upon oodles of skilled CS graduates (yes, in the US!) that aren't moving to the bay area....

briandear 12y ago

Amazon.com has no profits, according to their balance sheet.

anjc 12y ago

> It seems like labour shortages are built into the system. It certainly was: http://pando.com/2014/03/22/revealed-apple-and-googles-wage-fixing-cartel-involved-dozens-more-companies-over-one-million-employees/ http://pando.com/2014/03/22/revealed-apple-and-googles-wage-...