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Is there a solid example of loud overtones being generated by the "barbershop seventh" that you can point to, such as in a recording? I don't mean to be skepti

by rspeer 12y ago

Is there a solid example of loud overtones being generated by the "barbershop seventh" that you can point to, such as in a recording? I don't mean to be skeptical in a negative way. It would be great if music has a built-in payoff for singing with just intonation. I've recently heard some doubt, however, about whether this overtone effect is actually perceptible to listeners, in a way that would pass double-blind tests and stuff. It's not that the alternative is that barbershop singers are delusional or something: the alternative is that barbershop singers -- and some listeners -- have well-trained ears for just intonation, and the perception of the chord they're singing changes inside their brain when the intervals line up. I don't doubt the power of overtones lining up. This effect is where the entire musical scale comes from, after all. But does the barbershop effect actually physically come from constructive interference (this would limit it to a small number of chords made of undertones, incidentally), or is it just a noticeable auditory illusion that occurs in trained ears?

depoll 12y ago
It doesn't strictly come only from 7ths. Here you can see a chorus practicing producing these overtones, and it's both highly audible and demonstrably there: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCdQVqQXkzc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCdQVqQXkzc A sonogram like the one in this app will confirm that the effect is physical and not just an illusion: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.ntrack.tuner https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.ntrack.tun...
- rspeer 12y ago
  I still want to know more. What should I be listening for in the video? There's the moment at 0:45 when everyone stops and says "wow", but that could come from either explanation. Should I be expecting to hear a pitch that's higher than all the notes in the chord, lower than all the notes in the chord, or a different phenomenon that's not a distinct pitch? This effect is sometimes claimed to happen with a 4:5:6:7 dominant 7th chord. In that case, would I hear it at the 28th harmonic? The 30th? The 420th (which is the lowest overtone that all the notes have in common)? The 1st (the undertone they have in common)? Or is 4:5:6:7 actually a bad example? (I really doubt it's the 420th, of course. That would be a very high pitch around 17 KHz, which would be difficult to hear, and wouldn't be preserved at YouTube quality anyway.)
  - Synaesthesia 12y ago
    I think we're looking for a higher pitched sound in that video. I've heard it can take time to hear. I'm gonna listen again as well
  - baddox 12y ago
    The pitch is higher than the notes in the chord. At 0:32 I believe the instructor sings the overtone pitch in isolation and says "you should hear that over it," then they sing the chord again and you can hear that same overtone pitch fairly clearly.

by rspeer 12y ago

depoll 12y ago

It doesn't strictly come only from 7ths. Here you can see a chorus practicing producing these overtones, and it's both highly audible and demonstrably there: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCdQVqQXkzc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCdQVqQXkzc A sonogram like the one in this app will confirm that the effect is physical and not just an illusion: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.ntrack.tuner https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.ntrack.tun...

rspeer 12y ago
I still want to know more. What should I be listening for in the video? There's the moment at 0:45 when everyone stops and says "wow", but that could come from either explanation. Should I be expecting to hear a pitch that's higher than all the notes in the chord, lower than all the notes in the chord, or a different phenomenon that's not a distinct pitch? This effect is sometimes claimed to happen with a 4:5:6:7 dominant 7th chord. In that case, would I hear it at the 28th harmonic? The 30th? The 420th (which is the lowest overtone that all the notes have in common)? The 1st (the undertone they have in common)? Or is 4:5:6:7 actually a bad example? (I really doubt it's the 420th, of course. That would be a very high pitch around 17 KHz, which would be difficult to hear, and wouldn't be preserved at YouTube quality anyway.)
- Synaesthesia 12y ago
  I think we're looking for a higher pitched sound in that video. I've heard it can take time to hear. I'm gonna listen again as well
- baddox 12y ago
  The pitch is higher than the notes in the chord. At 0:32 I believe the instructor sings the overtone pitch in isolation and says "you should hear that over it," then they sing the chord again and you can hear that same overtone pitch fairly clearly.