6 ms·

Relevant: http://knote.com/2014/11/10/why-germans-work-fewer-hours-but-produce-more-a-study-in-culture/ http://knote.com/2014/11/10/why-germans-work-fewer-hours

Relevant: http://knote.com/2014/11/10/why-germans-work-fewer-hours-but-produce-more-a-study-in-culture/ http://knote.com/2014/11/10/why-germans-work-fewer-hours-but...

rapind 12y ago
I now love german culture. It's like finding my soulmate.
- jsilence 12y ago
  Please note that another german culture is to be overly pedantic in following rules, no matter if their initial intention applies or whether we just set them five minutes ago. Rules are followed because. This culture makes administrative processes bulky and tedious and tiring. It often fuels my Ungeduld, because I want to get st done zügig.
  - moconnor 12y ago
    This is true; it's also true that Things Work here. Processes, equipment, social organizations. To get your fishing permit you will need to provide all the right bits of paper and stamps, no exceptions. The flip side of this is that if you follow a set of precise, unambiguous instructions you will get your fishing permit. Source: moved from UK to Germany 8 years ago.
    - Argorak 12y ago
      My favorite expat quote is: Germans have rules for everything, but with some though put into them, most of them are quite sane. ;)
  - lectrick 12y ago
    Sounds like an opportunity to convert all the paperwork to some kind of IT-powered workflow.
    - jsilence 12y ago
      First you'd have to file all the neccessary application forms for a project like that. Good luck! ;-) And even if you succeed, in the end there'd be a rule that requires the Pdf to be printed, signed, copied, filed, scanned and filed again, digitally.
  - Moru 12y ago
    Indeed. I needed some paperwork when I got married with a german. I'm from Sweden. I called the tax office in sweden that was taking care of the papers I needed to file for marriage certificate in Germany and the woman on the phone was laughing heartily saying "Then you know how byrocrazy feels!" :-) They happily sent all papers I needed in the mail to me in Germany, translated to English. The clerk in Germany was eying it suspiciously and asking some colleagues and took quite some time before finally putting down his stamp.
- fit2rule 12y ago
  Yeah, just try living there.
pluma 12y ago
Before anybody else gets funny ideas: the claims in that article aren't entirely correct. First of all, I find the claim about 35 hours being the average a bit dubious. It may have been the average some years ago, but today it's probably closer to 38-40 hours, with service jobs (from retail to agencies) often adding unpaid overtime to that. On the other hand our work laws are pretty employee-friendly (e.g. a mandatory uninterrupted resting period of 24 hours per week in case you have to work on sundays) and larger companies are more likely to follow the letter of the law. The rules regarding Facebook and private e-mail have more to do with German privacy law: if the private use of work computers is explicitly forbidden, there are less legal landmines involved with intercepting or monitoring Internet use. In practice many places have an informal policy that allows these things, just not officially. The bit about employees not hanging around after work is also inaccurate. For many people a lot of friendships (and relationships) involve co-workers. In fact, this is one of the reasons there was such an outrage when Walmart tried to implement its US work policies in Germany (which forbade romantic relationships between co-workers -- not that that rule would have held up in German courts to begin with). There are indeed more days of paid vacation and families do receive preferential treatment when it comes to scheduling vacations during the major holidays or summer break. The difference when it comes to "Handwerk" is also very striking. Mediocre pay (and rampant moonlighting) aside, craftsmen are generally held in high regard and like most professions take a lot of pride in correctness and precision. This probably again goes hand in hand with Germany having a lot of laws, rules and standards for various fields of work (e.g. you can't just set up a shop as a car varnisher, you need a formal qualification for that). Also, bureaucracy. Although the sibling is right in that you do usually get the expected result if you follow all the rules, the paperwork can be daunting. Most people joke about the tax law in particular, but we have laws, rules and standards for everything. German law generally tends to define even edge cases clearly rather than leave them up to interpretation by the courts, consequently the legal system tends to be less shady than in the US, but trickier cases can still take years (but on the plus side, they are much cheaper than in the US). Also, universal healthcare.
bkeroack 12y ago
That article reads like the inverse of the Japanese "salaryman" (company as family, patriarch, protector, provider of all material comforts), which is also sometimes fetishized in Western circles (in terms of results) as "more efficient" or somehow better than American working culture.

Relevant: http://knote.com/2014/11/10/why-germans-work-fewer-hours-but-produce-more-a-study-in-culture/ http://knote.com/2014/11/10/why-germans-work-fewer-hours-but...

rapind 12y ago

I now love german culture. It's like finding my soulmate.

jsilence 12y ago
Please note that another german culture is to be overly pedantic in following rules, no matter if their initial intention applies or whether we just set them five minutes ago. Rules are followed because. This culture makes administrative processes bulky and tedious and tiring. It often fuels my Ungeduld, because I want to get st done zügig.
- moconnor 12y ago
  This is true; it's also true that Things Work here. Processes, equipment, social organizations. To get your fishing permit you will need to provide all the right bits of paper and stamps, no exceptions. The flip side of this is that if you follow a set of precise, unambiguous instructions you will get your fishing permit. Source: moved from UK to Germany 8 years ago.
  - Argorak 12y ago
    My favorite expat quote is: Germans have rules for everything, but with some though put into them, most of them are quite sane. ;)
- lectrick 12y ago
  Sounds like an opportunity to convert all the paperwork to some kind of IT-powered workflow.
  - jsilence 12y ago
    First you'd have to file all the neccessary application forms for a project like that. Good luck! ;-) And even if you succeed, in the end there'd be a rule that requires the Pdf to be printed, signed, copied, filed, scanned and filed again, digitally.
- Moru 12y ago
  Indeed. I needed some paperwork when I got married with a german. I'm from Sweden. I called the tax office in sweden that was taking care of the papers I needed to file for marriage certificate in Germany and the woman on the phone was laughing heartily saying "Then you know how byrocrazy feels!" :-) They happily sent all papers I needed in the mail to me in Germany, translated to English. The clerk in Germany was eying it suspiciously and asking some colleagues and took quite some time before finally putting down his stamp.
fit2rule 12y ago
Yeah, just try living there.

pluma 12y ago

Before anybody else gets funny ideas: the claims in that article aren't entirely correct. First of all, I find the claim about 35 hours being the average a bit dubious. It may have been the average some years ago, but today it's probably closer to 38-40 hours, with service jobs (from retail to agencies) often adding unpaid overtime to that. On the other hand our work laws are pretty employee-friendly (e.g. a mandatory uninterrupted resting period of 24 hours per week in case you have to work on sundays) and larger companies are more likely to follow the letter of the law. The rules regarding Facebook and private e-mail have more to do with German privacy law: if the private use of work computers is explicitly forbidden, there are less legal landmines involved with intercepting or monitoring Internet use. In practice many places have an informal policy that allows these things, just not officially. The bit about employees not hanging around after work is also inaccurate. For many people a lot of friendships (and relationships) involve co-workers. In fact, this is one of the reasons there was such an outrage when Walmart tried to implement its US work policies in Germany (which forbade romantic relationships between co-workers -- not that that rule would have held up in German courts to begin with). There are indeed more days of paid vacation and families do receive preferential treatment when it comes to scheduling vacations during the major holidays or summer break. The difference when it comes to "Handwerk" is also very striking. Mediocre pay (and rampant moonlighting) aside, craftsmen are generally held in high regard and like most professions take a lot of pride in correctness and precision. This probably again goes hand in hand with Germany having a lot of laws, rules and standards for various fields of work (e.g. you can't just set up a shop as a car varnisher, you need a formal qualification for that). Also, bureaucracy. Although the sibling is right in that you do usually get the expected result if you follow all the rules, the paperwork can be daunting. Most people joke about the tax law in particular, but we have laws, rules and standards for everything. German law generally tends to define even edge cases clearly rather than leave them up to interpretation by the courts, consequently the legal system tends to be less shady than in the US, but trickier cases can still take years (but on the plus side, they are much cheaper than in the US). Also, universal healthcare.

bkeroack 12y ago

That article reads like the inverse of the Japanese "salaryman" (company as family, patriarch, protector, provider of all material comforts), which is also sometimes fetishized in Western circles (in terms of results) as "more efficient" or somehow better than American working culture.