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It's a common article of faith among Java guys, who will tell you that there is no way you can write a safe program in a native language, although they can't re

It's a common article of faith among Java guys, who will tell you that there is no way you can write a safe program in a native language, although they can't really say why (it's effectively hearsay) other than pointers are involved. If Gosling said to use Java, who are they to question it?

deleted 12y ago
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maxlybbert 12y ago
For fun, mention that OpenJDK has over a million lines of native code (C and C++: https://gist.github.com/shipilev/2fddb1d2943a4cbb6080 https://gist.github.com/shipilev/2fddb1d2943a4cbb6080 ). Looking at the numbers for the hotspot directory, more than 2/3 of the code in the JVM itself is native code. I realize that this is caused by bootstrapping issues. But if someone believes it is truly impossible to write safe and secure native code, ask how they can trust the JVM to correctly run their safe program, given that it has so much native code. I know the old argument was that it was easier to audit the (small) amount of native code in the JVM than the code in your specific project. But half a million lines isn't small by any definition I'm aware of. It's larger than any native projects I've worked on.
- the_why_of_y 12y ago
  It's quite likely that the skill and experience level of the average OpenJDK Hotspot committer is a couple notches above the average... and to them things like the manual resource management you have to put up with in C/C++ are not a pointless distraction from their business problem, they are a core part of it. Besides there are JVMs implemented in Java too, just not with as high performance as Hotspot... search for Maxine or Jikes RVM.
  - maxlybbert 12y ago
    So is it possible to write safe software in a native/unsafe/unmanaged language if you know what you're doing? Wow, that's exactly what I tell people, but it isn't what you read on the first page of any number of Java programming books (of course, those books tell you that you must do manual resource management in C or C++ which is not, in fact, true ( e.g., http://www.apachetutor.org/dev/pools http://www.apachetutor.org/dev/pools and http://www.artima.com/intv/modern3.html http://www.artima.com/intv/modern3.html )). And, really, who wants to use a language designed for people who don't know what they're doing? I'm not saying that it's impossible to write a JVM in a managed language. Just that it's funny to hear people talk about native languages with a hint of fear, and then run their "safe" programs on a VM that is implemented with a half million lines of C and C++.

deleted 12y ago

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maxlybbert 12y ago

For fun, mention that OpenJDK has over a million lines of native code (C and C++: https://gist.github.com/shipilev/2fddb1d2943a4cbb6080 https://gist.github.com/shipilev/2fddb1d2943a4cbb6080 ). Looking at the numbers for the hotspot directory, more than 2/3 of the code in the JVM itself is native code. I realize that this is caused by bootstrapping issues. But if someone believes it is truly impossible to write safe and secure native code, ask how they can trust the JVM to correctly run their safe program, given that it has so much native code. I know the old argument was that it was easier to audit the (small) amount of native code in the JVM than the code in your specific project. But half a million lines isn't small by any definition I'm aware of. It's larger than any native projects I've worked on.

the_why_of_y 12y ago
It's quite likely that the skill and experience level of the average OpenJDK Hotspot committer is a couple notches above the average... and to them things like the manual resource management you have to put up with in C/C++ are not a pointless distraction from their business problem, they are a core part of it. Besides there are JVMs implemented in Java too, just not with as high performance as Hotspot... search for Maxine or Jikes RVM.
- maxlybbert 12y ago
  So is it possible to write safe software in a native/unsafe/unmanaged language if you know what you're doing? Wow, that's exactly what I tell people, but it isn't what you read on the first page of any number of Java programming books (of course, those books tell you that you must do manual resource management in C or C++ which is not, in fact, true ( e.g., http://www.apachetutor.org/dev/pools http://www.apachetutor.org/dev/pools and http://www.artima.com/intv/modern3.html http://www.artima.com/intv/modern3.html )). And, really, who wants to use a language designed for people who don't know what they're doing? I'm not saying that it's impossible to write a JVM in a managed language. Just that it's funny to hear people talk about native languages with a hint of fear, and then run their "safe" programs on a VM that is implemented with a half million lines of C and C++.