7 ms·

It's obvious in many cities, not just Detroit, that government has not been able to hold up its end of the property tax agreement by providing and properly main

It's obvious in many cities, not just Detroit, that government has not been able to hold up its end of the property tax agreement by providing and properly maintaining essential services such as water, streets, sewers, schools, fire and personal protection, and countless other "promises". Why should homeowners lose their homes to non-payment if their streets are falling apart, their schools are sub-par, their personal safety is non-existent, their water pipes are 100 years old, and their government declares bankruptcy? Selling off in tax delinquency court, homes with deeds that are free and clear, is an insult worthy of sustained organized protest. The fact that it doesn't happen is remarkable.

bluedino 12y ago
Not to mention the insane amounts that municipalities are paying towards the massive pensions and benefits for retired workers. How many existing police officers are cut in order to pay the pensions of the previously retired?
- themartorana 12y ago
  Edit: rant ahead, not aimed directly at bluedino I will never understand this. I agree life-time pensions are unsustainable. I argue constantly for a) all new public employees being enrolled in a 401k and pensions being phased out and b) offering younger workers buy-outs, allowing them to invest their contributions themselves in reward for opting out of the pension system. But that said - every pensioner out there worked for that pension. It was in their contract as an employee, a perk that often kept them in public service jobs, teaching your kids, putting out your fires, and so on. Every single person that argues for pulling the tablecloth out from under pensioners would be ferociously mad at the idea of any company canceling or reneging on a contract. To me, canceling or changing the pension of a retired (or soon to be retired) worker is the same as a bank deciding that you can't keep your house after all, even though you're not delinquent - it's just that the bank could use the value of your house, and breaking a contract is no big deal. Get off of the backs of pensioners - they put in their time, worked often for decades, contracted the promise of some security in retirement, but hey, we have a financial crisis, and suddenly they're freeloaders. Pretty much everything about pensions is broken and unsustainable, but that's not on the worker, that's on those that made the promise, and not keeping it is just the lowest form of horrible. Apologies for the rant. I accept the down voting I expect.
  - fidotron 12y ago
    I would share this position. Montreal has a particularly bad case going on, where for a large part of the 90s it showed on the city employees payslips that they were making pension contributions, but in reality the city just kept the money and said they'd pay it later (a "pension holiday"), but never did. The pensions in question do happen to be unreasonably large, but that was the problem that should have been dealt with at the time and not just kicked down the road. The city now want to get out of paying, which is a ludicrous position, in the same way that expecting new employees to get such generous pensions is insane.
  - jordanb 12y ago
    Why is a pension "unsustainable" and what's the difference between a pension and a 401k that makes the latter "sustainable"?
    - tedunangst 12y ago
      Pensions were underfunded. If you underfund your own 401k, that's on you. The pensioned people were told they didn't need to save for retirement because they had a pension, and so many of them didn't.
    - krakensden 12y ago
      401ks put the burden of investing wisely- and tightening your belt during recessions- on the pensioner and not the employer. This is bad in many ways, but, they are at least immune from the problem of crooked and moronic administrators investing in rare coins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coingate_scandal http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coingate_scandal) and sticking taxpayers with the fallout forever. It would be funnier if it wasn't so regular an occurrence.
    - gred 12y ago
      People often criticize "defined benefit plans" like pensions, where the employee is guaranteed a certain pension payment by the employer. This guarantee means that the employer, rather than the the employee, takes on most of the market risk. Employees (via e.g. unions) often push for pension guarantees that are likely to exceed realistic market returns, further increasing risk to the employer (as has happened in many municipalities in the US). Politicians who are here today, gone in 20 years, are sometimes incentivized to provide expanded pension guarantees (to make employees happy today) without adjusting funding (to keep taxpayers happy today). Defined contribution plans like 401(k)s, which have become much more popular in the past 20 or 30 years, move the risk to the employee -- nobody is guaranteeing anything, and your fortunes move with the market. Obviously there are downsides, but one of the big upsides is that it keeps everyone honest by forcing employers to fund plans today as needed (e.g. 401(k) matching is not a hypothetical cost to be faced in 20 years, it's something that must be paid out today). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defined_benefit_pension_plan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defined_benefit_pension_plan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defined_contribution_plan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defined_contribution_plan
thrwoway 12y ago
Where can I join your protest?

bluedino 12y ago

Not to mention the insane amounts that municipalities are paying towards the massive pensions and benefits for retired workers. How many existing police officers are cut in order to pay the pensions of the previously retired?

themartorana 12y ago
Edit: rant ahead, not aimed directly at bluedino I will never understand this. I agree life-time pensions are unsustainable. I argue constantly for a) all new public employees being enrolled in a 401k and pensions being phased out and b) offering younger workers buy-outs, allowing them to invest their contributions themselves in reward for opting out of the pension system. But that said - every pensioner out there worked for that pension. It was in their contract as an employee, a perk that often kept them in public service jobs, teaching your kids, putting out your fires, and so on. Every single person that argues for pulling the tablecloth out from under pensioners would be ferociously mad at the idea of any company canceling or reneging on a contract. To me, canceling or changing the pension of a retired (or soon to be retired) worker is the same as a bank deciding that you can't keep your house after all, even though you're not delinquent - it's just that the bank could use the value of your house, and breaking a contract is no big deal. Get off of the backs of pensioners - they put in their time, worked often for decades, contracted the promise of some security in retirement, but hey, we have a financial crisis, and suddenly they're freeloaders. Pretty much everything about pensions is broken and unsustainable, but that's not on the worker, that's on those that made the promise, and not keeping it is just the lowest form of horrible. Apologies for the rant. I accept the down voting I expect.
- fidotron 12y ago
  I would share this position. Montreal has a particularly bad case going on, where for a large part of the 90s it showed on the city employees payslips that they were making pension contributions, but in reality the city just kept the money and said they'd pay it later (a "pension holiday"), but never did. The pensions in question do happen to be unreasonably large, but that was the problem that should have been dealt with at the time and not just kicked down the road. The city now want to get out of paying, which is a ludicrous position, in the same way that expecting new employees to get such generous pensions is insane.
- jordanb 12y ago
  Why is a pension "unsustainable" and what's the difference between a pension and a 401k that makes the latter "sustainable"?
  - tedunangst 12y ago
    Pensions were underfunded. If you underfund your own 401k, that's on you. The pensioned people were told they didn't need to save for retirement because they had a pension, and so many of them didn't.
  - krakensden 12y ago
    401ks put the burden of investing wisely- and tightening your belt during recessions- on the pensioner and not the employer. This is bad in many ways, but, they are at least immune from the problem of crooked and moronic administrators investing in rare coins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coingate_scandal http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coingate_scandal) and sticking taxpayers with the fallout forever. It would be funnier if it wasn't so regular an occurrence.
  - gred 12y ago
    People often criticize "defined benefit plans" like pensions, where the employee is guaranteed a certain pension payment by the employer. This guarantee means that the employer, rather than the the employee, takes on most of the market risk. Employees (via e.g. unions) often push for pension guarantees that are likely to exceed realistic market returns, further increasing risk to the employer (as has happened in many municipalities in the US). Politicians who are here today, gone in 20 years, are sometimes incentivized to provide expanded pension guarantees (to make employees happy today) without adjusting funding (to keep taxpayers happy today). Defined contribution plans like 401(k)s, which have become much more popular in the past 20 or 30 years, move the risk to the employee -- nobody is guaranteeing anything, and your fortunes move with the market. Obviously there are downsides, but one of the big upsides is that it keeps everyone honest by forcing employers to fund plans today as needed (e.g. 401(k) matching is not a hypothetical cost to be faced in 20 years, it's something that must be paid out today). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defined_benefit_pension_plan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defined_benefit_pension_plan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defined_contribution_plan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defined_contribution_plan

thrwoway 12y ago

Where can I join your protest?