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What does nice really mean? Nice usually means you are a pushover and will go out of your way to make other people happy. I've seen lots of nice people try to

What does nice really mean? Nice usually means you are a pushover and will go out of your way to make other people happy. I've seen lots of nice people try to start businesses..what usually ends up happening is that someone more aggressive (IE: mean) comes around and either puts them out of business or pushes their way in to take it over. The successful ones are the ones that pushed back or were aggressive in the first place. It's not just a rule in business, it's a rule in life. If you are too nice, eventually someone will take advantage of you.

Bahamut 12y ago
Being nice is not antithetical to being competitive or being a pushover. I'd argue that being nice is crucial to being a strong good leader.
e40 12y ago
Nice usually means you are a pushover and will go out of your way to make other people happy. Wow. Maybe I'm just cynical, but nice, to me, means being fair, and generally employing The Golden Rule. I've been at forks in the road many times in my business career. I always took the fork that allowed me to sleep, which meant I applied The Golden Rule. I have employees that have worked for me for 20+ years and they seem to like me. I have no doubt that if I were a dick I could be more successful, but the cost of that would be too great for me.
- ams6110 12y ago
  So let's say you're at this fork in the road: On the left is a [edit: ethicial, i.e. not based on insider info, or other motivations that most people would think of as "cheating"] choice that you think will lead to more success for your business and more certainty of keeping your employees employed and maybe even hiring more. As a consequence, your competitors may lose some business and have to lay off some employees. On the right is a choice that you think will not benefit your business, maybe this choice is just doing nothing, carrying on as before. Your competitors are unharmed, nobody is laid off, but maybe your business will not be able to hire anyone new this year. Which choice "applies the golden rule." If this scenario isn't representative of what you are talking about, I apoligize; I am not trying to find any fault in what you are saying, just trying to clarify what you mean by what "allows you to sleep."
  - e40 12y ago
    Your question is too vague to apply the rule. Let me give a concrete example: I had a business relationship (he was an investor in my company) with Henry Burkhardt III [1]. He was, by anyone's definition, a serial entrepreneur. Very rich. Very successful. The following example comes from watching him. The setup: you and other shareholders control the board. Do you: 1) use your position to dramatically dilute less powerful founders and employees, or 2) be fair and keep their relative percentages commensurate with their contribution and value? Henry famously did #2 repeatedly. I don't have the stomach for it, so I've chosen #2. If my company is acquired, it will mean quite a lot less for me (and some other people). Is that stupid? Henry would've said yes. To give you an idea of his ethics, see [2]. And, let me be clear: the people that Henry diluted were key to his success, it's just that he didn't need them anymore. Once the invention was made or code was written, their importance could be minimized without doing harm to the business. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Burkhardt_III http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Burkhardt_III [2] https://www.sec.gov/litigation/litreleases/lr14895.txt https://www.sec.gov/litigation/litreleases/lr14895.txt
    - allengeorge 12y ago
      Did you mean he did #1 or #2?
      - e40 12y ago
        Sorry. #1. For some reason, I can't edit it. Guess too much time went by.
- paulhauggis 12y ago
  The problem isn't you, it's human nature. I've worked for many companies, large and small, and it's the same. You can be the nice person, but eventually someone will come along and use politics against you (or give you unfair work loads, etc). You also won't get nearly as many raises (because nice people generally don't ask for raises), which means less for yourself and your family. I run a few meetup groups. I was out of the country for a few months during the summer and the co-organizer (who is very nice) ran one of the groups. More aggressive people basically took over the group and nearly ruined it. It's human nature. When you are nice, a more aggressive person will try to control you, your actions, or your situation because they see it as a weakness. If this doesn't happen, it's by pure luck. Don't get me wrong. I'm not talking about being unethical. I'm just saying that fair and nice are mutually exclusive over any given amount of time. The reason is because someone will disagree with you at some point and perceive you as an "asshole" and sometimes you need to be an asshole to not get trampled over.
  - e40 12y ago
    * I'm just saying that fair and nice are mutually exclusive over any given amount of time.* My experience tells me I have to disagree with you. You can be fair and firm. I've had people try and walk over me in the past. I always respond the same way: keep emotion out of it, firmly respond in a logical way to their demand. I tell them "no, you can have/do X" and explain why. The situation where this will not work: trolls. Public figures attract trolls and dealing with them is a completely different matter. But, in a work environment, I've never had a situation that couldn't be handled in a nice but firm way.
spiritplumber 12y ago
This has happened to me at least twice (Cellbots, OpenROV). Now I just tell people up front that I am a honest person and will keep my word to my death, but will respond to underhanded tactics with naked violence, and they can get me arrested and/or sue me iff they survive the beating (I don't much believe in weapons either, this sort of thing should be visceral and primitive). It works surprisingly well, I suspect it's because most people who hear that think I'm kidding but have a nagging suspicion that I'm not (For the record, I am a pacifist: the last time I started a fight I was 9 years old; the last time I ended a fight was earlier this year) I say this as someone who allowed two homeless people to move in with me and paid for their rehab, for the record - "nice" means "thinking the best of people", not "being a doormat". Some times you have to act larger than life, good or bad, to be taken seriously.
- warcher 12y ago
  Pump the brakes, man. If you reach the point where physical violence is your only resort, let me promise you that, in a business environment, punching somebody is only making your personal situation much, much worse. I have been in enough street fights as an adult to recognize that they are a spectacularly risky behavior with zero upside. And are a strong indicator of something being really off in your brain. If you're really conducting yourself in this fashion, and not just barking on the internet, people will hear about it and you will get permanently crossed off lists you didn't even know existed. Don't beat people up, or threaten to beat people up, over business deals. Ever.
  - spiritplumber 12y ago
    I agree with you - like I said, I've never started a fight in my adult life. And I don't threaten to beat people up; that's for the weak; I tell people up front "If you are dishonest with me, you will not hear from my lawyer; I will kick your ass there and then". It speaks to the reptilian brain, and unfortunately, it's all some people (especially "mean people") listen to - which is my main point here. That said, I have two close friends whose relationship I started with by being punched in the face and punching back. A punch is communication, sometimes (I would argue that a knife lunge, or a bullet, are not - they have permanent consequences). We are humans. Humans, especially men, have an instinct for violence. If you can let it out by knuckles, and go home with just a black eye - it's a lot better than letting things fester and escalate, and up stabbed, shot, or having your life ruined by a bureaucracy. Like I said, I'm a honest person. I've spent six months designing a critical part of a power plant on a handshake. I've had the pleasure of dealing with people who've done stuff like that on a much larger scale (think oilfields). I just never again want to deal with people who think that they're better than their word. As far as blacklists go... they're for other people. The space around me? Blacklist free zone. I've let two meth junkies into my home, live there for a year, put them through what rehab I could manage. One is clean and back in school, the other is mostly clean and working (min wage, but better than nothing). They had been "blacklisted" by a good chunk of society (yay being trans, eh), even by their own families. I don't do blacklists. And I don't let others do it to me. (You know the "rejection rejection letter" joke that floats around? I've done something like that once. It was fun and a bit of science got done because of it.) How do I enforce this? With my hands and with my head, same as everyone else. They're the greatest weapons in the universe, BECAUSE they're the opposite of weapons 99% of the time, it's what you make stuff with. Maybe I'm telling the truth and maybe I'm just being an internet tough guy. If you care to know, do science to it, think.

Bahamut 12y ago

Being nice is not antithetical to being competitive or being a pushover. I'd argue that being nice is crucial to being a strong good leader.

e40 12y ago

Nice usually means you are a pushover and will go out of your way to make other people happy. Wow. Maybe I'm just cynical, but nice, to me, means being fair, and generally employing The Golden Rule. I've been at forks in the road many times in my business career. I always took the fork that allowed me to sleep, which meant I applied The Golden Rule. I have employees that have worked for me for 20+ years and they seem to like me. I have no doubt that if I were a dick I could be more successful, but the cost of that would be too great for me.

ams6110 12y ago
So let's say you're at this fork in the road: On the left is a [edit: ethicial, i.e. not based on insider info, or other motivations that most people would think of as "cheating"] choice that you think will lead to more success for your business and more certainty of keeping your employees employed and maybe even hiring more. As a consequence, your competitors may lose some business and have to lay off some employees. On the right is a choice that you think will not benefit your business, maybe this choice is just doing nothing, carrying on as before. Your competitors are unharmed, nobody is laid off, but maybe your business will not be able to hire anyone new this year. Which choice "applies the golden rule." If this scenario isn't representative of what you are talking about, I apoligize; I am not trying to find any fault in what you are saying, just trying to clarify what you mean by what "allows you to sleep."
- e40 12y ago
  Your question is too vague to apply the rule. Let me give a concrete example: I had a business relationship (he was an investor in my company) with Henry Burkhardt III [1]. He was, by anyone's definition, a serial entrepreneur. Very rich. Very successful. The following example comes from watching him. The setup: you and other shareholders control the board. Do you: 1) use your position to dramatically dilute less powerful founders and employees, or 2) be fair and keep their relative percentages commensurate with their contribution and value? Henry famously did #2 repeatedly. I don't have the stomach for it, so I've chosen #2. If my company is acquired, it will mean quite a lot less for me (and some other people). Is that stupid? Henry would've said yes. To give you an idea of his ethics, see [2]. And, let me be clear: the people that Henry diluted were key to his success, it's just that he didn't need them anymore. Once the invention was made or code was written, their importance could be minimized without doing harm to the business. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Burkhardt_III http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Burkhardt_III [2] https://www.sec.gov/litigation/litreleases/lr14895.txt https://www.sec.gov/litigation/litreleases/lr14895.txt
  - allengeorge 12y ago
    Did you mean he did #1 or #2?
    - e40 12y ago
      Sorry. #1. For some reason, I can't edit it. Guess too much time went by.
paulhauggis 12y ago
The problem isn't you, it's human nature. I've worked for many companies, large and small, and it's the same. You can be the nice person, but eventually someone will come along and use politics against you (or give you unfair work loads, etc). You also won't get nearly as many raises (because nice people generally don't ask for raises), which means less for yourself and your family. I run a few meetup groups. I was out of the country for a few months during the summer and the co-organizer (who is very nice) ran one of the groups. More aggressive people basically took over the group and nearly ruined it. It's human nature. When you are nice, a more aggressive person will try to control you, your actions, or your situation because they see it as a weakness. If this doesn't happen, it's by pure luck. Don't get me wrong. I'm not talking about being unethical. I'm just saying that fair and nice are mutually exclusive over any given amount of time. The reason is because someone will disagree with you at some point and perceive you as an "asshole" and sometimes you need to be an asshole to not get trampled over.
- e40 12y ago
  * I'm just saying that fair and nice are mutually exclusive over any given amount of time.* My experience tells me I have to disagree with you. You can be fair and firm. I've had people try and walk over me in the past. I always respond the same way: keep emotion out of it, firmly respond in a logical way to their demand. I tell them "no, you can have/do X" and explain why. The situation where this will not work: trolls. Public figures attract trolls and dealing with them is a completely different matter. But, in a work environment, I've never had a situation that couldn't be handled in a nice but firm way.

spiritplumber 12y ago

This has happened to me at least twice (Cellbots, OpenROV). Now I just tell people up front that I am a honest person and will keep my word to my death, but will respond to underhanded tactics with naked violence, and they can get me arrested and/or sue me iff they survive the beating (I don't much believe in weapons either, this sort of thing should be visceral and primitive). It works surprisingly well, I suspect it's because most people who hear that think I'm kidding but have a nagging suspicion that I'm not (For the record, I am a pacifist: the last time I started a fight I was 9 years old; the last time I ended a fight was earlier this year) I say this as someone who allowed two homeless people to move in with me and paid for their rehab, for the record - "nice" means "thinking the best of people", not "being a doormat". Some times you have to act larger than life, good or bad, to be taken seriously.

warcher 12y ago
Pump the brakes, man. If you reach the point where physical violence is your only resort, let me promise you that, in a business environment, punching somebody is only making your personal situation much, much worse. I have been in enough street fights as an adult to recognize that they are a spectacularly risky behavior with zero upside. And are a strong indicator of something being really off in your brain. If you're really conducting yourself in this fashion, and not just barking on the internet, people will hear about it and you will get permanently crossed off lists you didn't even know existed. Don't beat people up, or threaten to beat people up, over business deals. Ever.
- spiritplumber 12y ago
  I agree with you - like I said, I've never started a fight in my adult life. And I don't threaten to beat people up; that's for the weak; I tell people up front "If you are dishonest with me, you will not hear from my lawyer; I will kick your ass there and then". It speaks to the reptilian brain, and unfortunately, it's all some people (especially "mean people") listen to - which is my main point here. That said, I have two close friends whose relationship I started with by being punched in the face and punching back. A punch is communication, sometimes (I would argue that a knife lunge, or a bullet, are not - they have permanent consequences). We are humans. Humans, especially men, have an instinct for violence. If you can let it out by knuckles, and go home with just a black eye - it's a lot better than letting things fester and escalate, and up stabbed, shot, or having your life ruined by a bureaucracy. Like I said, I'm a honest person. I've spent six months designing a critical part of a power plant on a handshake. I've had the pleasure of dealing with people who've done stuff like that on a much larger scale (think oilfields). I just never again want to deal with people who think that they're better than their word. As far as blacklists go... they're for other people. The space around me? Blacklist free zone. I've let two meth junkies into my home, live there for a year, put them through what rehab I could manage. One is clean and back in school, the other is mostly clean and working (min wage, but better than nothing). They had been "blacklisted" by a good chunk of society (yay being trans, eh), even by their own families. I don't do blacklists. And I don't let others do it to me. (You know the "rejection rejection letter" joke that floats around? I've done something like that once. It was fun and a bit of science got done because of it.) How do I enforce this? With my hands and with my head, same as everyone else. They're the greatest weapons in the universe, BECAUSE they're the opposite of weapons 99% of the time, it's what you make stuff with. Maybe I'm telling the truth and maybe I'm just being an internet tough guy. If you care to know, do science to it, think.