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Exactly why Linux will never dominate the Desktop environment by the average user. You basically can't use Linux without at some time going to the cmd line to

Exactly why Linux will never dominate the Desktop environment by the average user. You basically can't use Linux without at some time going to the cmd line to fix some dam configuration or driver problem.

SwellJoe 12y ago
And, yet, it dominates the tablet and mobile environment, which is already more important than the desktop market ever was. Funny how that works.
- secfirstmd 12y ago
  I know exactly what you mean. But we both know these are very different things. For most people, their tablet and phone works absolutely seemlessly, with drivers, apps, downloads etc just working they way they want them to. It just never works that way on the Desktop unfort. I know loads of "average" people who have tried to use MINT/Ubuntu but eventually a big chunk end up reaching for Redmond after they spend too long looking at StackExchange trying to figure something out.
  - SwellJoe 12y ago
    It doesn't matter; there are literally more phones and tablets than there are desktop/laptop computers. Desktop/laptop is irrelevant in the future. Chromebook and hybrid tablets are slowly eating into the "laptop" market. Many people will never buy a laptop because their tablet or phone does what they need. I know a lot of people who go weeks between opening their computer, but live on their phone and tablet. Desktop and laptop will be a thing people use at work for a long while, and it'll probably still be ruled by Windows. Creatives and developers will have beefy computers, and they'll probably still be running Windows and Mac OS X predominantly (though I use Fedora, and have never really worked on anything other than a Linux system). For now. I can't predict what will happen on that front, but phones and tablets are encroaching on so many fronts I never would have predicted (I just bought my first tablet last week, and thought they were ridiculous for years even after they'd started taking off).
    - esoterae 12y ago
      I take issue with your hypothesis. Tablets and chromebooks have already been around for several years. Why do I still use a desktop for work? Why don't I just ssh everywhere from my eyepad? Because they suck at making me productive. Desktops and actual laptops are not going anywhere, because they run fully featured OSs that people can contribute to, not some nasty walled garden of corporate shrink-wrapped ToS turds and ignored pull requests (if you're so lucky to even come within barfing distance of a FOSS component on lobotomy-hardware). Look, IBM started predicting the death of the desktop, what, 20 years ago? 30? It's not going to happen. Then laptops came around. They're gonna kill the desktop! O noes! Not gonna happen. Ultrabooks are gonna kill laptops! Yeah, maybe.. Depends on how much they wind up resembling good laptops. Starts to sound pretty familiar after a while.
      - SwellJoe 12y ago
        Why do I still use a desktop for work? Please re-read my comment; I've already conceded the workplace will remain a desktop/laptop domain for some time, and that I can't predict when that will change, and for the reasons I mentioned. And, as I said, I don't know how the workplace will play out on the desktop and laptop. I bet it will gradually show declining power for Microsoft and increasing market for Apple and various Linux variants (for different reasons). So, I don't disagree with you. Desktops and laptops will stick around for a long time in some segments, including the workplace. I don't know how long that will last, possibly decades more. But, it doesn't matter; the desktop/laptop is already less important than the phone/table...and Linux won that market. It effectively won "Desktop 2.0".
  - zanny 12y ago
    > after they spend too long looking at StackExchange trying to figure something out. Why are they on Stack Exchange? If they are installing a Linux distro on a Windows computer, then of course you will have an unpleasant experience. If you want to use Ubuntu the right way without having to butt heads with anything, you buy a system from zareason / thinkpenguin / system76. You can / will run into the same "searching the Internet" for problems installing Windows on your custom built gaming rig. Driver bugs, config issues, etc. Except for those you will end up digging through yahoo answers or windows help with even more misinformation and bloat. In the end fundamentally it is not a problem with the Linux desktop. You can use a terminal on Windows as well, but you don't expect to because you bought a Windows computer and expect it to work. The same expectation should be had of prebuilt Ubuntu systems, and I think nowadays it lives up to expectation in my experience.
    - bufordsharkley 12y ago
      Cheapest laptop on zareason: $699 Cheapest laptop on thinkpenguin: $599 Cheapest laptop on system76: $799 (unless, of course, I'm missing something) ...I'm running Ubuntu on an ASUS laptop that cost under $400, which worked almost seamlessly, and I installed Mint on my ma's laptop that cost under $400. (That incurred finding a new video driver to avoid running everything in 800x600) I would love to have a Linux-out-of-the-box experience, but the price has to make sense.
      - zanny 12y ago
        I know this is a problem, that is why one of my side jobs is custom building Linux machines locally. I do tech support, and if the client doesn't need Windows specific software or it runs perfectly under Wine I'll set them up with Linux builds and notebooks. I have several Chromebooks I'm versed in reformatting and know they work flawlessly and on what kernel versions that happens. That is not good UX for the average joe, or anyone you are just introducing to Linux. It is a UX fail and ruins impressions when people try to install Linux on arbitrary hardware and have a bad time of it. Yes, if you are a veteran and know what you are doing you can do better than the vendors, but to recommend anything else to a Linux newbie without absolute confidence in comprehensive hardware support is just ruining their first impression.
- EdwardDiego 12y ago
  Linux doesn't dominate the mobile environment. A very specific port of it, by Google, does. Given that it's Google, that's hardly a compelling argument. They could've made Windows NT dominant if they'd so desired.
  - eumenides1 12y ago
    No they couldn't make WinNT dominant if they wanted because WinNT's source code isn't freely available. Linux doesn't describe one OS, rather a class of OSes. Like Cancer isn't a disease but a class of disesases, or functional programming isn't one language but a class of them. Google is dominant because they dominiated. MS didn't dominate, google does, and it's not like both companies couldn't compete in a money fight. And this comes back to Windows NT not being dominant despite MS's wishes.
  - SwellJoe 12y ago
    The comment I was replying to suggested that the diversity (the forks) of Linux were the reason Linux would never win the desktop. I made my comment to make two assertions: First, that the desktop is irrelevant today because more people use phones and tablets, and the spread will continue to grow. Second, that the forkability of Linux made it possible for Android to exist...and, to practically destroy every other competitor for the phone and tablet (except Apple, but Android has a very comfortable, and growing, lead over Apple). And, when Google started down the Android path, they weren't the Google we know today. It was not a foregone conclusion, and had they chosen a tech which they couldn't control completely, I can't imagine how it could have worked out the way it has. Microsoft couldn't make Windows dominate on the phone/tablet, despite devoting plenty of resources to the task, I'm sure Google couldn't have (given that anybody that buys from Microsoft plays to Microsoft's tune or they don't play at all).
    - SwellJoe 12y ago
      And, I feel like I should add: "Make it on the desktop" always meant "the consumer desktop". There is no consumer desktop in the future. The consumer desktop is a tablet or a phone or a TV device or all three. I don't understand it, I don't necessarily like it (I like desktops with big monitors, big hard drives, big mouse and keyboard, and a nice chair to sit in), but it's the way things are. Computing isn't something consumers do sitting at a desk any more. So, Linux won what is currently the way consumers use computers. And, that's hella fascinating, and hella cool.
jqm 12y ago
I can't remember the last time I had to fix a driver problem on Linux. My GF, who is not very computer savvy, has been using Mint for years at home and at work. Unfortunately, there were no command line configurations needed even once to set it up. What a disappointment. Ah well, I personally use Slackware so I'll get my jollies there I suppose.... Granted, I did have to go by GF's work at one point and install a printer but you know what? I've spent a lot less time there than I used to as her Windows systems (she and an assistant now both use Mint) regularly got virus or gunked up and slowed to a crawl... Linux on the desktop has actually been much easier and reduced my honeydo workload considerably. Fact. That aside, I have to scratch my head and wonder about people who claim to have so many of these types of problems. Tech people too. People who should be eager to embrace and learn powerful command line invocations and the control this learning brings....
- krylon 12y ago
  I remember, ten years ago I had to compile the kernel module for my sound card manually, because it was not part of the mainline kernel. shrug Since then, my experience with Linux' driver support has been very smooth, as well, any a lot smoother than stuff I've seen on Windows. Getting a printer to work on Windows is incredibly convoluted compared to CUPS.
- x0x0 12y ago
  screwing with command line nonsense to make wifi and audio work reliably on my laptop isn't learning, it's technical masturbation. I want to use my computer to do actual work, not make-work. This was within the last 12 months on ubuntu and a lenovo laptop, btw.
krylon 12y ago
As if that was different on Windows. Windows only works smoothly until it does not, and then you inevitably have to invoke some command-line tool you never heard of before and won't find any documentation for, or you have to edit some arcane registry key. Most people I know who use Windows at home either call "that guy" they know who knows his way around a computer, or they just reinstall their system (which is not such a bad idea, really, just very inconvenient).
- secfirstmd 12y ago
  Hmm, I possibly would have agreed with you up until XP, when it was very very buggy and crash prone, but after that for the average user I really doubt that is the case. Thought I think we can agree to disagree depending on our respective experiences.
  - tormeh 12y ago
    This. I'm not saying modern Windows is fault free. It may have an inconvenient user interface for some things, it may not always do the thing you want it to etc. but it never fails to boot, everything but Apple hardware runs it flawlessly and it has a massive third-party software selection. For me, though, Ubuntu's user interface is just so much more convenient for programming and the other things I do that I manage with debugging the occasional failure to boot, install etc., but that's because I have unusual priorities and good google-fu.
    - secfirstmd 12y ago
      Just to toss something else into the mix...:) Honestly,I really really dislike Apple...esp the fanboy culture, mythology of Steve Jobs (and the culture which means everyone in Starbucks knows him and not Norman Borlaug), the weird shops, the overpriced products and ripoff margins, lack of choice and individually vs Android...for years I've been known as the guy who slags off Apple etc etc BUUUUUTTTTTT - and this might be relevant to Windows survivability in the future. Having spent nearly a week humming and thinking, comparing every type of new business laptop (powerful, reliable etc) at any price to run as my next Windows machine, I can't really find any...Thinkpad has seemed to have gone to pieces, DELL I have only ever had bad experiences with, ASUS/ACER meh etc... I quite literally am close to swallowing my pride (awaits incoming from friends who I slagged off over the years) and buying a MacBook and putting Windows on it. Maybe it's just me, but as Windows (except for the Win 8 bloaty crap) software has gotten better, the hardware at the moment seems to be getting worse.
tootie 12y ago
Best Linux desktop? ChromeOS.

SwellJoe 12y ago

And, yet, it dominates the tablet and mobile environment, which is already more important than the desktop market ever was. Funny how that works.

secfirstmd 12y ago
I know exactly what you mean. But we both know these are very different things. For most people, their tablet and phone works absolutely seemlessly, with drivers, apps, downloads etc just working they way they want them to. It just never works that way on the Desktop unfort. I know loads of "average" people who have tried to use MINT/Ubuntu but eventually a big chunk end up reaching for Redmond after they spend too long looking at StackExchange trying to figure something out.
- SwellJoe 12y ago
  It doesn't matter; there are literally more phones and tablets than there are desktop/laptop computers. Desktop/laptop is irrelevant in the future. Chromebook and hybrid tablets are slowly eating into the "laptop" market. Many people will never buy a laptop because their tablet or phone does what they need. I know a lot of people who go weeks between opening their computer, but live on their phone and tablet. Desktop and laptop will be a thing people use at work for a long while, and it'll probably still be ruled by Windows. Creatives and developers will have beefy computers, and they'll probably still be running Windows and Mac OS X predominantly (though I use Fedora, and have never really worked on anything other than a Linux system). For now. I can't predict what will happen on that front, but phones and tablets are encroaching on so many fronts I never would have predicted (I just bought my first tablet last week, and thought they were ridiculous for years even after they'd started taking off).
  - esoterae 12y ago
    I take issue with your hypothesis. Tablets and chromebooks have already been around for several years. Why do I still use a desktop for work? Why don't I just ssh everywhere from my eyepad? Because they suck at making me productive. Desktops and actual laptops are not going anywhere, because they run fully featured OSs that people can contribute to, not some nasty walled garden of corporate shrink-wrapped ToS turds and ignored pull requests (if you're so lucky to even come within barfing distance of a FOSS component on lobotomy-hardware). Look, IBM started predicting the death of the desktop, what, 20 years ago? 30? It's not going to happen. Then laptops came around. They're gonna kill the desktop! O noes! Not gonna happen. Ultrabooks are gonna kill laptops! Yeah, maybe.. Depends on how much they wind up resembling good laptops. Starts to sound pretty familiar after a while.
    - SwellJoe 12y ago
      Why do I still use a desktop for work? Please re-read my comment; I've already conceded the workplace will remain a desktop/laptop domain for some time, and that I can't predict when that will change, and for the reasons I mentioned. And, as I said, I don't know how the workplace will play out on the desktop and laptop. I bet it will gradually show declining power for Microsoft and increasing market for Apple and various Linux variants (for different reasons). So, I don't disagree with you. Desktops and laptops will stick around for a long time in some segments, including the workplace. I don't know how long that will last, possibly decades more. But, it doesn't matter; the desktop/laptop is already less important than the phone/table...and Linux won that market. It effectively won "Desktop 2.0".
- zanny 12y ago
  > after they spend too long looking at StackExchange trying to figure something out. Why are they on Stack Exchange? If they are installing a Linux distro on a Windows computer, then of course you will have an unpleasant experience. If you want to use Ubuntu the right way without having to butt heads with anything, you buy a system from zareason / thinkpenguin / system76. You can / will run into the same "searching the Internet" for problems installing Windows on your custom built gaming rig. Driver bugs, config issues, etc. Except for those you will end up digging through yahoo answers or windows help with even more misinformation and bloat. In the end fundamentally it is not a problem with the Linux desktop. You can use a terminal on Windows as well, but you don't expect to because you bought a Windows computer and expect it to work. The same expectation should be had of prebuilt Ubuntu systems, and I think nowadays it lives up to expectation in my experience.
  - bufordsharkley 12y ago
    Cheapest laptop on zareason: $699 Cheapest laptop on thinkpenguin: $599 Cheapest laptop on system76: $799 (unless, of course, I'm missing something) ...I'm running Ubuntu on an ASUS laptop that cost under $400, which worked almost seamlessly, and I installed Mint on my ma's laptop that cost under $400. (That incurred finding a new video driver to avoid running everything in 800x600) I would love to have a Linux-out-of-the-box experience, but the price has to make sense.
    - zanny 12y ago
      I know this is a problem, that is why one of my side jobs is custom building Linux machines locally. I do tech support, and if the client doesn't need Windows specific software or it runs perfectly under Wine I'll set them up with Linux builds and notebooks. I have several Chromebooks I'm versed in reformatting and know they work flawlessly and on what kernel versions that happens. That is not good UX for the average joe, or anyone you are just introducing to Linux. It is a UX fail and ruins impressions when people try to install Linux on arbitrary hardware and have a bad time of it. Yes, if you are a veteran and know what you are doing you can do better than the vendors, but to recommend anything else to a Linux newbie without absolute confidence in comprehensive hardware support is just ruining their first impression.
EdwardDiego 12y ago
Linux doesn't dominate the mobile environment. A very specific port of it, by Google, does. Given that it's Google, that's hardly a compelling argument. They could've made Windows NT dominant if they'd so desired.
- eumenides1 12y ago
  No they couldn't make WinNT dominant if they wanted because WinNT's source code isn't freely available. Linux doesn't describe one OS, rather a class of OSes. Like Cancer isn't a disease but a class of disesases, or functional programming isn't one language but a class of them. Google is dominant because they dominiated. MS didn't dominate, google does, and it's not like both companies couldn't compete in a money fight. And this comes back to Windows NT not being dominant despite MS's wishes.
- SwellJoe 12y ago
  The comment I was replying to suggested that the diversity (the forks) of Linux were the reason Linux would never win the desktop. I made my comment to make two assertions: First, that the desktop is irrelevant today because more people use phones and tablets, and the spread will continue to grow. Second, that the forkability of Linux made it possible for Android to exist...and, to practically destroy every other competitor for the phone and tablet (except Apple, but Android has a very comfortable, and growing, lead over Apple). And, when Google started down the Android path, they weren't the Google we know today. It was not a foregone conclusion, and had they chosen a tech which they couldn't control completely, I can't imagine how it could have worked out the way it has. Microsoft couldn't make Windows dominate on the phone/tablet, despite devoting plenty of resources to the task, I'm sure Google couldn't have (given that anybody that buys from Microsoft plays to Microsoft's tune or they don't play at all).
  - SwellJoe 12y ago
    And, I feel like I should add: "Make it on the desktop" always meant "the consumer desktop". There is no consumer desktop in the future. The consumer desktop is a tablet or a phone or a TV device or all three. I don't understand it, I don't necessarily like it (I like desktops with big monitors, big hard drives, big mouse and keyboard, and a nice chair to sit in), but it's the way things are. Computing isn't something consumers do sitting at a desk any more. So, Linux won what is currently the way consumers use computers. And, that's hella fascinating, and hella cool.

jqm 12y ago

I can't remember the last time I had to fix a driver problem on Linux. My GF, who is not very computer savvy, has been using Mint for years at home and at work. Unfortunately, there were no command line configurations needed even once to set it up. What a disappointment. Ah well, I personally use Slackware so I'll get my jollies there I suppose.... Granted, I did have to go by GF's work at one point and install a printer but you know what? I've spent a lot less time there than I used to as her Windows systems (she and an assistant now both use Mint) regularly got virus or gunked up and slowed to a crawl... Linux on the desktop has actually been much easier and reduced my honeydo workload considerably. Fact. That aside, I have to scratch my head and wonder about people who claim to have so many of these types of problems. Tech people too. People who should be eager to embrace and learn powerful command line invocations and the control this learning brings....

krylon 12y ago
I remember, ten years ago I had to compile the kernel module for my sound card manually, because it was not part of the mainline kernel. shrug Since then, my experience with Linux' driver support has been very smooth, as well, any a lot smoother than stuff I've seen on Windows. Getting a printer to work on Windows is incredibly convoluted compared to CUPS.
x0x0 12y ago
screwing with command line nonsense to make wifi and audio work reliably on my laptop isn't learning, it's technical masturbation. I want to use my computer to do actual work, not make-work. This was within the last 12 months on ubuntu and a lenovo laptop, btw.

krylon 12y ago

As if that was different on Windows. Windows only works smoothly until it does not, and then you inevitably have to invoke some command-line tool you never heard of before and won't find any documentation for, or you have to edit some arcane registry key. Most people I know who use Windows at home either call "that guy" they know who knows his way around a computer, or they just reinstall their system (which is not such a bad idea, really, just very inconvenient).

secfirstmd 12y ago
Hmm, I possibly would have agreed with you up until XP, when it was very very buggy and crash prone, but after that for the average user I really doubt that is the case. Thought I think we can agree to disagree depending on our respective experiences.
- tormeh 12y ago
  This. I'm not saying modern Windows is fault free. It may have an inconvenient user interface for some things, it may not always do the thing you want it to etc. but it never fails to boot, everything but Apple hardware runs it flawlessly and it has a massive third-party software selection. For me, though, Ubuntu's user interface is just so much more convenient for programming and the other things I do that I manage with debugging the occasional failure to boot, install etc., but that's because I have unusual priorities and good google-fu.
  - secfirstmd 12y ago
    Just to toss something else into the mix...:) Honestly,I really really dislike Apple...esp the fanboy culture, mythology of Steve Jobs (and the culture which means everyone in Starbucks knows him and not Norman Borlaug), the weird shops, the overpriced products and ripoff margins, lack of choice and individually vs Android...for years I've been known as the guy who slags off Apple etc etc BUUUUUTTTTTT - and this might be relevant to Windows survivability in the future. Having spent nearly a week humming and thinking, comparing every type of new business laptop (powerful, reliable etc) at any price to run as my next Windows machine, I can't really find any...Thinkpad has seemed to have gone to pieces, DELL I have only ever had bad experiences with, ASUS/ACER meh etc... I quite literally am close to swallowing my pride (awaits incoming from friends who I slagged off over the years) and buying a MacBook and putting Windows on it. Maybe it's just me, but as Windows (except for the Win 8 bloaty crap) software has gotten better, the hardware at the moment seems to be getting worse.

tootie 12y ago

Best Linux desktop? ChromeOS.