4 ms·

If you've been around that much, you really don't have much of an excuse for such a ridiculous position. The northern suburbs of Atlanta qualify, for one area.

If you've been around that much, you really don't have much of an excuse for such a ridiculous position. The northern suburbs of Atlanta qualify, for one area. High on the fundamentalist Christian scale, higher on the gun ownership scale, and extremely high on the lower taxes scale. And all doing well on this chart, many in the top 10%. Large swaths of the west would qualify as well. I'm really curious to hear how your explanation for how belief in gun ownership causes people to be trapped in poverty.

lisper 12y ago
I didn't say that "belief in gun ownership causes people to be trapped in poverty." What I said was that belief that "the best way to preserve freedom and peace is unfettered access to firearms" causes people to be trapped in poverty. But I probably shouldn't have cited this as an example because it's too politically charged. What causes people to be trapped in poverty is doggedly clinging to beliefs even in the face of overwhelming evidence that those beliefs are false. That is a personality trait that prevents people from solving problems, so it is no surprise that in places where most people have this personality trait, problems tend to go unsolved.
- mc32 12y ago
  It's not a personality trait --it's something called belief perseverance. People tend to hold on to their beliefs more irrationally as more available evidence shows the opposite view. You see this in conspiracy theories, climate change, etc. If you showed a climate change believer opposing evidence, they'd discount it; if you showed a climate change denier opposing evidence, they too would discount the evidence.
  - lisper 12y ago
    But belief perseverance is a personality trait, no?
    - mc32 12y ago
      Wouldn't it be extraordinary to have so many people with nearly identical personality traits to live so closely to each other?
      - lisper 12y ago
        Not "identical personality traits" plural, one common personality trait, singular. And it's not everyone, merely enough to keep effective problem solvers out of government.
- waterlesscloud 12y ago
  So are you saying that successful people don't cling to beliefs that have a lot of evidence against them? Because that's even more generally wrong that what you initially stated.
  - lisper 12y ago
    No, that is not what I'm saying (please stop putting words in my mouth and raising straw-man arguments). I'm saying that clinging to false beliefs is not conducive to problem solving, and so if a society considers it virtuous to cling to false beliefs, problems will tend to go unsolved. It may well be that clinging to false beliefs has other societal benefits, but IMHO those are outweighed by the cost. I also believe that, all else being equal, an individual more likely to succeed if they don't cling to false beliefs, but that's not what is under discussion here. But if you want to discuss that, there are two important things to keep in mind: 1. All else is never equal. Societal conformance is very important to success, so in a society where clinging to false beliefs is considered a virtue, an individual may well do better by doing so. 2. Individual outcomes have a very high variance, i.e. they are due as much or more to luck as a person's choices. So in a population of millions you will always be able to find individuals who were successful despite doing all the wrong things (and vice versa by the way).
    - waterlesscloud 12y ago
      I'm not raising strawmen, I'm asking you things that quite logically follow from your statements. All I can say at this point is that your theory is definitely in conflict with my observations of the world. So much so that I see the theory as wishful thinking about how things ought to work than how they actually do.
      - lisper 12y ago
        My apologies, I misread what you wrote as a statement rather than a question (I swapped the words "you" and "are". Maybe I'm developing late-onset dyslexia.) So let me try this again: no, I am not saying that "successful people don't cling to beliefs that have a lot of evidence against them". I am saying that a society that considers it virtuous to maintain beliefs in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary is going to be less effective at solving problems than a society that does not consider it a virtue, and so problems will tend to go unsolved more than if the society did not consider this a virtue. What observations of the world have you made that contradict this?

lisper 12y ago

I didn't say that "belief in gun ownership causes people to be trapped in poverty." What I said was that belief that "the best way to preserve freedom and peace is unfettered access to firearms" causes people to be trapped in poverty. But I probably shouldn't have cited this as an example because it's too politically charged. What causes people to be trapped in poverty is doggedly clinging to beliefs even in the face of overwhelming evidence that those beliefs are false. That is a personality trait that prevents people from solving problems, so it is no surprise that in places where most people have this personality trait, problems tend to go unsolved.

mc32 12y ago
It's not a personality trait --it's something called belief perseverance. People tend to hold on to their beliefs more irrationally as more available evidence shows the opposite view. You see this in conspiracy theories, climate change, etc. If you showed a climate change believer opposing evidence, they'd discount it; if you showed a climate change denier opposing evidence, they too would discount the evidence.
- lisper 12y ago
  But belief perseverance is a personality trait, no?
  - mc32 12y ago
    Wouldn't it be extraordinary to have so many people with nearly identical personality traits to live so closely to each other?
    - lisper 12y ago
      Not "identical personality traits" plural, one common personality trait, singular. And it's not everyone, merely enough to keep effective problem solvers out of government.
waterlesscloud 12y ago
So are you saying that successful people don't cling to beliefs that have a lot of evidence against them? Because that's even more generally wrong that what you initially stated.
- lisper 12y ago
  No, that is not what I'm saying (please stop putting words in my mouth and raising straw-man arguments). I'm saying that clinging to false beliefs is not conducive to problem solving, and so if a society considers it virtuous to cling to false beliefs, problems will tend to go unsolved. It may well be that clinging to false beliefs has other societal benefits, but IMHO those are outweighed by the cost. I also believe that, all else being equal, an individual more likely to succeed if they don't cling to false beliefs, but that's not what is under discussion here. But if you want to discuss that, there are two important things to keep in mind: 1. All else is never equal. Societal conformance is very important to success, so in a society where clinging to false beliefs is considered a virtue, an individual may well do better by doing so. 2. Individual outcomes have a very high variance, i.e. they are due as much or more to luck as a person's choices. So in a population of millions you will always be able to find individuals who were successful despite doing all the wrong things (and vice versa by the way).
  - waterlesscloud 12y ago
    I'm not raising strawmen, I'm asking you things that quite logically follow from your statements. All I can say at this point is that your theory is definitely in conflict with my observations of the world. So much so that I see the theory as wishful thinking about how things ought to work than how they actually do.
    - lisper 12y ago
      My apologies, I misread what you wrote as a statement rather than a question (I swapped the words "you" and "are". Maybe I'm developing late-onset dyslexia.) So let me try this again: no, I am not saying that "successful people don't cling to beliefs that have a lot of evidence against them". I am saying that a society that considers it virtuous to maintain beliefs in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary is going to be less effective at solving problems than a society that does not consider it a virtue, and so problems will tend to go unsolved more than if the society did not consider this a virtue. What observations of the world have you made that contradict this?