4 ms·

You really should travel a bit more, it might help getting out of that very narrow mindset. There are plenty of places with precisely those beliefs that are doi

You really should travel a bit more, it might help getting out of that very narrow mindset. There are plenty of places with precisely those beliefs that are doing quite well.

forgotpasswd3x 12y ago
Yeah, and Appalachia isn't one of them. Maybe it's time to try something else.
lisper 12y ago
Really? Can you give me a few examples of places where people overwhelmingly subscribe to young-earth creationism that are going "quite well"? (Oh, and BTW, I was born in Germany. I have been to over seventy countries. I grew up in Tennessee, and went to college in rural Virginia, and spent two years hanging out with homeless people in LA. So I'm pretty sure my "narrow mindset" is not due to not having seen enough of the world.)
- waterlesscloud 12y ago
  If you've been around that much, you really don't have much of an excuse for such a ridiculous position. The northern suburbs of Atlanta qualify, for one area. High on the fundamentalist Christian scale, higher on the gun ownership scale, and extremely high on the lower taxes scale. And all doing well on this chart, many in the top 10%. Large swaths of the west would qualify as well. I'm really curious to hear how your explanation for how belief in gun ownership causes people to be trapped in poverty.
  - lisper 12y ago
    I didn't say that "belief in gun ownership causes people to be trapped in poverty." What I said was that belief that "the best way to preserve freedom and peace is unfettered access to firearms" causes people to be trapped in poverty. But I probably shouldn't have cited this as an example because it's too politically charged. What causes people to be trapped in poverty is doggedly clinging to beliefs even in the face of overwhelming evidence that those beliefs are false. That is a personality trait that prevents people from solving problems, so it is no surprise that in places where most people have this personality trait, problems tend to go unsolved.
    - mc32 12y ago
      It's not a personality trait --it's something called belief perseverance. People tend to hold on to their beliefs more irrationally as more available evidence shows the opposite view. You see this in conspiracy theories, climate change, etc. If you showed a climate change believer opposing evidence, they'd discount it; if you showed a climate change denier opposing evidence, they too would discount the evidence.
      - lisper 12y ago
        But belief perseverance is a personality trait, no?
        mc32 12y ago
        Wouldn't it be extraordinary to have so many people with nearly identical personality traits to live so closely to each other?
        lisper 12y ago
        Not "identical personality traits" plural, one common personality trait, singular. And it's not everyone, merely enough to keep effective problem solvers out of government.
    - waterlesscloud 12y ago
      So are you saying that successful people don't cling to beliefs that have a lot of evidence against them? Because that's even more generally wrong that what you initially stated.
      - lisper 12y ago
        No, that is not what I'm saying (please stop putting words in my mouth and raising straw-man arguments). I'm saying that clinging to false beliefs is not conducive to problem solving, and so if a society considers it virtuous to cling to false beliefs, problems will tend to go unsolved. It may well be that clinging to false beliefs has other societal benefits, but IMHO those are outweighed by the cost. I also believe that, all else being equal, an individual more likely to succeed if they don't cling to false beliefs, but that's not what is under discussion here. But if you want to discuss that, there are two important things to keep in mind: 1. All else is never equal. Societal conformance is very important to success, so in a society where clinging to false beliefs is considered a virtue, an individual may well do better by doing so. 2. Individual outcomes have a very high variance, i.e. they are due as much or more to luck as a person's choices. So in a population of millions you will always be able to find individuals who were successful despite doing all the wrong things (and vice versa by the way).

You really should travel a bit more, it might help getting out of that very narrow mindset. There are plenty of places with precisely those beliefs that are doing quite well.

forgotpasswd3x 12y ago

Yeah, and Appalachia isn't one of them. Maybe it's time to try something else.

lisper 12y ago

Really? Can you give me a few examples of places where people overwhelmingly subscribe to young-earth creationism that are going "quite well"? (Oh, and BTW, I was born in Germany. I have been to over seventy countries. I grew up in Tennessee, and went to college in rural Virginia, and spent two years hanging out with homeless people in LA. So I'm pretty sure my "narrow mindset" is not due to not having seen enough of the world.)

waterlesscloud 12y ago
If you've been around that much, you really don't have much of an excuse for such a ridiculous position. The northern suburbs of Atlanta qualify, for one area. High on the fundamentalist Christian scale, higher on the gun ownership scale, and extremely high on the lower taxes scale. And all doing well on this chart, many in the top 10%. Large swaths of the west would qualify as well. I'm really curious to hear how your explanation for how belief in gun ownership causes people to be trapped in poverty.
- lisper 12y ago
  I didn't say that "belief in gun ownership causes people to be trapped in poverty." What I said was that belief that "the best way to preserve freedom and peace is unfettered access to firearms" causes people to be trapped in poverty. But I probably shouldn't have cited this as an example because it's too politically charged. What causes people to be trapped in poverty is doggedly clinging to beliefs even in the face of overwhelming evidence that those beliefs are false. That is a personality trait that prevents people from solving problems, so it is no surprise that in places where most people have this personality trait, problems tend to go unsolved.
  - mc32 12y ago
    It's not a personality trait --it's something called belief perseverance. People tend to hold on to their beliefs more irrationally as more available evidence shows the opposite view. You see this in conspiracy theories, climate change, etc. If you showed a climate change believer opposing evidence, they'd discount it; if you showed a climate change denier opposing evidence, they too would discount the evidence.
    - lisper 12y ago
      But belief perseverance is a personality trait, no?
      - mc32 12y ago
        Wouldn't it be extraordinary to have so many people with nearly identical personality traits to live so closely to each other?
        lisper 12y ago
        Not "identical personality traits" plural, one common personality trait, singular. And it's not everyone, merely enough to keep effective problem solvers out of government.
  - waterlesscloud 12y ago
    So are you saying that successful people don't cling to beliefs that have a lot of evidence against them? Because that's even more generally wrong that what you initially stated.
    - lisper 12y ago
      No, that is not what I'm saying (please stop putting words in my mouth and raising straw-man arguments). I'm saying that clinging to false beliefs is not conducive to problem solving, and so if a society considers it virtuous to cling to false beliefs, problems will tend to go unsolved. It may well be that clinging to false beliefs has other societal benefits, but IMHO those are outweighed by the cost. I also believe that, all else being equal, an individual more likely to succeed if they don't cling to false beliefs, but that's not what is under discussion here. But if you want to discuss that, there are two important things to keep in mind: 1. All else is never equal. Societal conformance is very important to success, so in a society where clinging to false beliefs is considered a virtue, an individual may well do better by doing so. 2. Individual outcomes have a very high variance, i.e. they are due as much or more to luck as a person's choices. So in a population of millions you will always be able to find individuals who were successful despite doing all the wrong things (and vice versa by the way).