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I went to one of these and got freaked out because it's an unmistakable cult. The teachers on the podiums up at the front is a creepy psychological hack, the r

I went to one of these and got freaked out because it's an unmistakable cult. The teachers on the podiums up at the front is a creepy psychological hack, the recorded chanting they play while you meditate is hypnotic programming, the 2 hour video lectures of the great leader convincing you of his religion being your only stimulation, the bowing and mindless chanting from the regulars being passed off as "optional for first timers." Many of the people there mentioned they go several times a year, with that glassy eyed obsessed stare. At least one person mentioned they had moved their home to be near the group. I tried to skip a session because I didn't get enough sleep and the management came and got me out of my room. That's when I knew it was time to leave. Also, if you leave early, you get excommunicated and blacklisted. The point of all this is to make you unquestionably loyal to the group and to become an evangelist, which is how these things become so popular. The danger of cults is that if you go for long enough you can permanently lose your identity and self respect. It's probably not actually possible to 100% master the skill of meditating painlessly, which undermines your confidence and makes you more determined to achieve the enlightenment they promise, which exposes you to more brainwashing and makes you more submissive to the great leader, etc. They do at least provide a source of protein and the food was pretty good. The technique itself is pretty useful, and after the 4 days of silent nonstop meditation reality felt really weird and everyone in the outside world looked like an impulsive idiot being emasculated by their smartphones. This feeling lasted a few days and then wore off. I'm sure the effect lasts much longer if you do the full 10 days. I'm pretty sure you would get that same effect going through any very intensive and stressful course and avoiding anything fun or distracting, and the culty brainwashing stuff is totally unnecessary. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4-Hms7bHqY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4-Hms7bHqY

timeofgifts 12y ago
> I went to one of these and got freaked out That's the problem, you freaked out and left, even though they ask everyone multiple times at the beginning whether you are ready to stay for the full 10 days. As someone who took more than one of these courses I can say that the single most important thing you should do during your first course is not quit. Strange things start happening to people when they are put into an environment where they can't do anything but eat, sleep and meditate. Your mind starts playing tricks on you and you start reacting to your thoughts. Wave after wave of anger, joy, confusion, happiness, sexual fantasies, tranquility, fear, etc, come and go. It's like your mind switches to different modes. You don't notice this during normal life, and that's the real beauty of these courses and centers. To give you an opportunity to observe all that is happening in your mind. Although I experience this before, it still happens to me when I take a course and start wondering what am I doing here, this is a waste of time, this is all a cult, a scam, etc. Nope, it's just my mind reacting :) That's how you learn, I don't think there's another way to silence the mind. >I tried to skip a session because I didn't get enough sleep and the management came and got me out of my room. That's their job. It's not a holiday and you are there to work hard. In fact I can easily say that my first course was the hardest thing I've done in my life, it was just brutal. But my mind felt much clearer, I had way less anxiety and just felt kind of happy.
- lostcolony 12y ago
  You have two comments on HN, one linking to one of these ten day courses, and now this one defending it, nothing else. You may want to be a bit more active, and on other topics, if you want to be seen as credible.
  - justsee 12y ago
    Here is a write-up of my experience doing that particular 10 day meditation course, which I'm surprised to discover wrapped up almost 10 years to the day: http://weblog.squareapple.net/archives/2004/11/26/art_of_living.html http://weblog.squareapple.net/archives/2004/11/26/art_of_liv...
- jotm 12y ago
  Uh, that's exactly how brainwashing works.
estefan 12y ago
YMMV I guess. I did a similar course and the religiousy aspects did put me off a bit (bowing and prostrations), but the leader did explain there was no worship involved and that the practices were to remind you of what you wanted to aspire to. He offered the techniques and said they worked for some people but not others, and to take what worked best for you. Maybe your videotaped guy was too pushy? We did have to read some Buddhist verses every morning which was incredibly boring, but hey ho, it was a Buddhist retreat so I expected something along those lines. And anyway, it provided a chance to be aware of the resistance I have to organised religions. > the recorded chanting they play while you meditate is hypnotic programming I probably wouldn't put it like that, but if the chanting didn't induce some sort of effect it would be pointless to do anyway. "Programming" isn't it though. > I tried to skip a session because I didn't get enough sleep and the management came and got me out of my room. That's when I knew it was time to leave. I got tired with the 5am starts, but the discipline is something I find lacking on a normal weekend so overall I found the experience valuable. > Many of the people there mentioned they go several times a year, with that glassy eyed obsessed stare. At least one person mentioned they had moved their home to be near the group. Yeah, some people can get a bit over-excited - but the benefit of it being a silent retreat is you don't have to listen to them go on about it :-) TBH if you found a decent teacher you'd probably form a different opinion. I think these retreats need to be taught very delicately to emphasise the practices while not pushing a dogma or religion on you.
- wpietri 12y ago
  Yeah. One of the smartest things I heard is from Huston Smith. Somebody asked him the relationship between religion and spirituality. He said, "Religion gives spirituality historical traction." I'm pretty antireligious, so I get why bobsgame was creeped out by the historical-traction aspects of their practices. (People tried to force me to be Christian in my teens, so I've got a bucket of fuck-you ready whenever I feel the slightest religious pressure.) And if one doesn't feel safe, one should get up and go. But many people teach meditation in ways that are either low on religion or consciously eschew it. I'd add that it is worth playing with some of the practices regardless. Chanting, for example. The mock religion "Church of the Subgenius" have redone the hare krishna chant to use the Three Stooges: Larry Curly Larry Curly Curly Curly Larry Larry Larry Moe Larry Moe Moe Moe Larry Larry Meditative chanting like that (which, for clarity, I do at home, not in somebody else's temple) is a really interesting experience. It made me more open to occasionally joining in with other people's religious practices; knowing the experience I was less worried about getting sucked in.
delluminatus 12y ago
Video lectures during the meditation? That sounds bad... the only things that I think would be acceptable are guided meditations, where you focus on different parts of your body, or moving your energy or whatever. If they legitimately had video lectures unrelated to instruction or chanting that seemed to have an agenda, I would also have left. Personally, I think the only thing you should hear during meditation is nothing. A guided relaxation process is fine for a half hour but after that you need to leave people to their thoughts (or lack thereof :). I wonder if you would have felt better at a more Zen-style meditation where anyone talking gets hit with a stick? That's the kind of place I would want to go.
- adrice727 12y ago
  There are no lectures during meditation. There are some instructions given prior to meditation sessions the first few days of the course, and then again on the final day where "metta" meditation is introduced. There are video lectures every evening which are more or less based on the 4 Noble Truths.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
abandonliberty 12y ago
The responses here are very interesting. I would think mindfulness would increase empathy, but many of them appear to be sidestepping your experience. Was your course at one of the centers listed on dhamma.org ?
DenisM 12y ago
I did a full 10-day course and it was everything but a cult. I can see how one can perceive it as such, but my impression was entirely opposite - there is strong, effective and well-tested self-improvement methodology dressed into a tiny sliver of Buddhist religion. The dressing makes it easier to digest for some people and is easy to ignore for others. The freak-out is not unusual, a friend of mine left in a hurry reporting something remotely similar to claustrophobia. She never mentioned being banned or anything like that, and I'd surprised if it happened. My other two friends shrugged off the whole experience. Yet another acquaintance reported permanent reduction in anger, and completely giving up alcohol, which was previously a problem. Myself I became less "jumpy", less likely to be frightened by a sudden noise or such. There were otherpositive effects like reduction in compulsive eating, but they worn out in about 6 months. None of us ever went back, and I only get an occasional email from them.
intended 12y ago
Which one did you go to? Theres a lot of different people offering 10 day courses, and most I've heard of don't force the religious aspect on you. You can go and not give a damn about it, and just do the mindfulness part, which is pretty intense in itself. (IF you are doing a vipasna course) 10 days of not speaking to anyone else, (really, even avoiding eye contact) - its rough on a lot of people.
ca98am79 12y ago
I have attended two of these courses, and have benefited extremely from them, and I know they try very, very hard to make sure that they do not become a cult. They are very anti-cult, and I think it is important that this remains a priority. I was diagnosed with panic disorder and no treatment worked, but after attending a course I was able to get it under control.

timeofgifts 12y ago

> I went to one of these and got freaked out That's the problem, you freaked out and left, even though they ask everyone multiple times at the beginning whether you are ready to stay for the full 10 days. As someone who took more than one of these courses I can say that the single most important thing you should do during your first course is not quit. Strange things start happening to people when they are put into an environment where they can't do anything but eat, sleep and meditate. Your mind starts playing tricks on you and you start reacting to your thoughts. Wave after wave of anger, joy, confusion, happiness, sexual fantasies, tranquility, fear, etc, come and go. It's like your mind switches to different modes. You don't notice this during normal life, and that's the real beauty of these courses and centers. To give you an opportunity to observe all that is happening in your mind. Although I experience this before, it still happens to me when I take a course and start wondering what am I doing here, this is a waste of time, this is all a cult, a scam, etc. Nope, it's just my mind reacting :) That's how you learn, I don't think there's another way to silence the mind. >I tried to skip a session because I didn't get enough sleep and the management came and got me out of my room. That's their job. It's not a holiday and you are there to work hard. In fact I can easily say that my first course was the hardest thing I've done in my life, it was just brutal. But my mind felt much clearer, I had way less anxiety and just felt kind of happy.

lostcolony 12y ago
You have two comments on HN, one linking to one of these ten day courses, and now this one defending it, nothing else. You may want to be a bit more active, and on other topics, if you want to be seen as credible.
- justsee 12y ago
  Here is a write-up of my experience doing that particular 10 day meditation course, which I'm surprised to discover wrapped up almost 10 years to the day: http://weblog.squareapple.net/archives/2004/11/26/art_of_living.html http://weblog.squareapple.net/archives/2004/11/26/art_of_liv...
jotm 12y ago
Uh, that's exactly how brainwashing works.

estefan 12y ago

YMMV I guess. I did a similar course and the religiousy aspects did put me off a bit (bowing and prostrations), but the leader did explain there was no worship involved and that the practices were to remind you of what you wanted to aspire to. He offered the techniques and said they worked for some people but not others, and to take what worked best for you. Maybe your videotaped guy was too pushy? We did have to read some Buddhist verses every morning which was incredibly boring, but hey ho, it was a Buddhist retreat so I expected something along those lines. And anyway, it provided a chance to be aware of the resistance I have to organised religions. > the recorded chanting they play while you meditate is hypnotic programming I probably wouldn't put it like that, but if the chanting didn't induce some sort of effect it would be pointless to do anyway. "Programming" isn't it though. > I tried to skip a session because I didn't get enough sleep and the management came and got me out of my room. That's when I knew it was time to leave. I got tired with the 5am starts, but the discipline is something I find lacking on a normal weekend so overall I found the experience valuable. > Many of the people there mentioned they go several times a year, with that glassy eyed obsessed stare. At least one person mentioned they had moved their home to be near the group. Yeah, some people can get a bit over-excited - but the benefit of it being a silent retreat is you don't have to listen to them go on about it :-) TBH if you found a decent teacher you'd probably form a different opinion. I think these retreats need to be taught very delicately to emphasise the practices while not pushing a dogma or religion on you.

wpietri 12y ago
Yeah. One of the smartest things I heard is from Huston Smith. Somebody asked him the relationship between religion and spirituality. He said, "Religion gives spirituality historical traction." I'm pretty antireligious, so I get why bobsgame was creeped out by the historical-traction aspects of their practices. (People tried to force me to be Christian in my teens, so I've got a bucket of fuck-you ready whenever I feel the slightest religious pressure.) And if one doesn't feel safe, one should get up and go. But many people teach meditation in ways that are either low on religion or consciously eschew it. I'd add that it is worth playing with some of the practices regardless. Chanting, for example. The mock religion "Church of the Subgenius" have redone the hare krishna chant to use the Three Stooges: Larry Curly Larry Curly Curly Curly Larry Larry Larry Moe Larry Moe Moe Moe Larry Larry Meditative chanting like that (which, for clarity, I do at home, not in somebody else's temple) is a really interesting experience. It made me more open to occasionally joining in with other people's religious practices; knowing the experience I was less worried about getting sucked in.

delluminatus 12y ago

Video lectures during the meditation? That sounds bad... the only things that I think would be acceptable are guided meditations, where you focus on different parts of your body, or moving your energy or whatever. If they legitimately had video lectures unrelated to instruction or chanting that seemed to have an agenda, I would also have left. Personally, I think the only thing you should hear during meditation is nothing. A guided relaxation process is fine for a half hour but after that you need to leave people to their thoughts (or lack thereof :). I wonder if you would have felt better at a more Zen-style meditation where anyone talking gets hit with a stick? That's the kind of place I would want to go.

adrice727 12y ago
There are no lectures during meditation. There are some instructions given prior to meditation sessions the first few days of the course, and then again on the final day where "metta" meditation is introduced. There are video lectures every evening which are more or less based on the 4 Noble Truths.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

abandonliberty 12y ago

The responses here are very interesting. I would think mindfulness would increase empathy, but many of them appear to be sidestepping your experience. Was your course at one of the centers listed on dhamma.org ?

DenisM 12y ago

I did a full 10-day course and it was everything but a cult. I can see how one can perceive it as such, but my impression was entirely opposite - there is strong, effective and well-tested self-improvement methodology dressed into a tiny sliver of Buddhist religion. The dressing makes it easier to digest for some people and is easy to ignore for others. The freak-out is not unusual, a friend of mine left in a hurry reporting something remotely similar to claustrophobia. She never mentioned being banned or anything like that, and I'd surprised if it happened. My other two friends shrugged off the whole experience. Yet another acquaintance reported permanent reduction in anger, and completely giving up alcohol, which was previously a problem. Myself I became less "jumpy", less likely to be frightened by a sudden noise or such. There were otherpositive effects like reduction in compulsive eating, but they worn out in about 6 months. None of us ever went back, and I only get an occasional email from them.

intended 12y ago

Which one did you go to? Theres a lot of different people offering 10 day courses, and most I've heard of don't force the religious aspect on you. You can go and not give a damn about it, and just do the mindfulness part, which is pretty intense in itself. (IF you are doing a vipasna course) 10 days of not speaking to anyone else, (really, even avoiding eye contact) - its rough on a lot of people.

ca98am79 12y ago

I have attended two of these courses, and have benefited extremely from them, and I know they try very, very hard to make sure that they do not become a cult. They are very anti-cult, and I think it is important that this remains a priority. I was diagnosed with panic disorder and no treatment worked, but after attending a course I was able to get it under control.