5 ms·
Ask HN: How can we solve diversity in tech talent without allocating quotas?
Most commentary and discussions tend to highlight % of people by gender and race, while hinting at allocating quotas in order to bring better balance to the work force.
I feel this maybe a flawed approach and there could be a better way to address diversity without going down the quotas approach.
What do think?
- greenyoda 12y agoBy instituting quotas, wouldn't companies be explicitly discriminating against potential employees (e.g., white males) based on gender and race, which is illegal under U.S. law?
- kedargj 12y agoAren't most folks in positions of privilege and power above the law? ;)
- seekingcharlie 12y agoFemale here & I agree. Feminism should always be about equality, not bashing men down to elevate women.
- lsiebert 12y agoConsult your local lawyer, which I am not. That said, see The Supreme Court case https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Steelworkers_v._Weber https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Steelworkers_v._Weber It lays out requirements for a legal quota system.
- EvanZ 12y agoWhy not just hire based on merit, and let gender and race percentages fall where they may?
- yzzxy 12y agoBecause practices implicitly assumes that merit === talent, and that natural talent cannot be hidden by extenuating circumstances such as social pressure away from a given trade or poor access to learning resources.
- Perdition 12y agoSo? Expecting industry to solve such a huge societal problem is ridiculous. The only thing tech businesses can be expected to do is not discriminate. Restructuring society to address systemic injustice that start well before kids even go to school is not something industry can achieve.
- yzzxy 12y agoI'm arguing that a truly effective meritocratic system should be able to recognize merit that might be hidden by the kinds of social circumstances that affirmative action attempts to compensate for. Even if you don't think industry should address these issues, there's a chance that the game theoretically optimal option is to make special consideration for underrepresented groups.
- Perdition 12y agoBut affirmative action doesn't recognize merit, it rewards luck (at being the minority given the job) and is designed to even out ethnic/sex ratios without regard for productivity. Also, a meritocratic system only requires the "winners" are chosen on the merit of their work. It will never be possible to eliminate all disadvantages which might prevent somebody from achieving some abstract concept of potential.
- lsiebert 12y agoHow do you define merit then? It may never be possible to eliminate all the disadvantages, but moving towards equality in outcome is still worthwhile. Like a blind person can't be made to see, but screen reading software and braille text is still better then not having those things.
- lastofus 12y agoQuotas are not the answer... (I can't think of anything I've read recently that hinted as such) The answer is similar to the answer for problems that have been recently highlighted by the Ferguson catastrofuck. And that answer is to figure out how to remove systemic and often institutionalized biases and narratives that have been baked into our society and in turn the heads of individuals growing up and living in it. That's the first step. The second is to figure out a solution to the income inequality that opens so many doors for some, and keeps them closed for so many others. It's about creating a fair playing field for everyone, where a theoretical, honest to god meritocracy could actually perhaps exist. How does one go about doing that? No fucking clue.
- 1dundundun 12y agoThis answer will be ignored for the most part but you nailed it. As far as your last two sentences in your reply, I appreciate the honesty. The fact that the convo has elevated to this level of nuance and understanding indicates things are finally moving in the right direction though.
- lsiebert 12y agoI'd start by actually talking to the people facing the issues. Talking to users is important for product development; I think this is similar to that.
- m0llusk 12y agoDevelop new talent starting by supporting promising young people.
- webmaven 12y agoQuotas are exactly what you need. But not hiring quotas. Feel free to adjust the percentages below, but this is what you should aim for to eventually get to gender diversity (for example): Tell recruiters you want 50% of the qualified candidates they send to you to be female. Evaluate resumes in a form stripped of as much identifying information as possible. Half of all candidates interviewed should be female. If not, try to identify an additional upstream bias, perhaps at the resume evaluation stage (example: Women have less free time for side projects, so make sure that when you evaluate a Github account it is for quality not quantity). Aim for diversity in your interviewers. Half of the interviewing employees should be female. If that isn't possible, at least one of the interviewing employees must be female (and if you only have one interviewing female employee, she should get a 'creep factor' veto, especially if anyone else in the company (like a founder) has a veto. If that isn't possible (because you have no female employees), fix it and hire a woman already. That's it. No need for actual hiring quotas after that point, you should be able to hire for merit out of the interviewees. If you end up not being gender diverse (ie. only industry average or below), figure out why (perhaps an existing interviewing employee is setting of their 'creep factor' alarms so they don't accept your offer, or there is a promotion bias and talented women aren't sticking around after you hire them). In parallel, you can make similar efforts around race, etc.