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From sources... Amazon is a heavy Java -> Scala shop. They are probably looking at Clojure to diversify as Scala is hitting some growing pains, but they can st

by nutate 12y ago

From sources... Amazon is a heavy Java -> Scala shop. They are probably looking at Clojure to diversify as Scala is hitting some growing pains, but they can still leverage their large JVM expertise.

deepGem 12y ago
Just out of curiosity, what are the pains with Scala that clojure will heal.
- threeseed 12y ago
  Scala is a combination of OO and Functional. As such there is this "grey" in the middle that is confusing and complex. Combine that with Scala's bewildering type system and I can see why companies move to Java or Clojure.
  - digitalzombie 12y ago
    Totally agree with you. I was really into Scala and studying it and everything. I still remember all the scala bloggers I follow, Daniel, Tim MOrris, Paul Snively, etc... Eventually I landed into a scala job role. Oh boy was it different. The other programmers were like type casting to Any or whatever that generalize highest type was (unified type theory). The complexity is pretty high, it's great if you know it all but in all seriousness it was impeding...
    - saryant 12y ago
      > The other programmers were like type casting to Any or whatever that generalize highest type was (unified type theory). As a Scala dev, that is absolutely terrifying. I can't even begin to think of a good reason for that.
      - codygman 12y ago
        It sounds like a Haskell programmer using unsafePerformIO everywhere. Or, perhaps a more apt example would be using Data.Dynamic for everything.
        saryant 12y ago
        Yeah, casting to Any isn't a "grey area" in Scala's OO/Functional mix, it's just plain crazy.
        carterschonwald 12y ago
        Those are still pretty safe to do. OTOH, Any drops everything on the floor
        michaelochurch 12y ago
        unsafePerformIO is for quiche eaters. Real programmers use accursedUnutterablePerformIO. (Ok, but in all seriousness... don't.)
    - deepGem 12y ago
      That's just bad usage of a language feature don't you think. I'm still trying to figure out whether to blame the language because of the way programmers use it. Personally, I like the object + static typing + first class functions as it eliminates 90% of errors at compile time. If any error occurs at run time, am pretty sure it's logical. This is a huge plus. The only drawback - the ridiculous amount of type specific code you have to write for mundane changes/updates.
      - disputin 12y ago
        Reality is: https://departmentfortransport.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/iwm-fence.jpg https://departmentfortransport.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/i...
    - michaelochurch 12y ago
      Scala with mediocre programmers (CommodityScrumDrones writing FactoryVisitor classes) is an outright disaster. The Java community has its flaws (oh boy, does it) but it has adapted to the hordes of mediocrities. Give Scala to mediocre engineers (who typecast to Any, use null instead of Option[T]) and you have the Java hell with worse IDE support and 5x compile times.
      - frowaway001 12y ago
        It's quite easy to disallow all of that.
        saryant 12y ago
        Yeah, pretty sure you could get WartRemover or one of the other static analysis tools to disallow these sort of egregious violations.
saosebastiao 12y ago
Amazon actually has a pretty interesting history with Lisp. I believe Steve Yegge has written about it before, but I'm not sure. It was pretty much completely gone by the time I got there though. Amazon went from almost completely C++/Lisp to almost completely Java/Ruby over the course of about 5 years. I'm not directly in the dev space, but it appears as though the choice of languages that people use has far more to do with what Builder Tools will support than what people actually want to use. Teams only use Scala or Clojure if they are willing to build it using their convoluted Ant wrapper that doesn't make any sense.
l8erCode 12y ago
From sources... There's not much overlap between the Scala and Clojure folk, so nothing to do with any "growing pains". Scala's seeing much more uptake than Clojure.
- nutate 12y ago
  Yeah, I can't imagine someone who's proficient with Scala seeing anything special in Clojure. I'm just a sight-seer in those languages, but I can see there are some neat things in both. Parenthesis are always offputting to me, even though I like a fair amount of clojure concepts. I often feel like functional programming has made a cottage industry around putting obfuscated names around relatively simple ideas (see transducers for example)
codeonfire 12y ago
Amazon is literally thousands of shops with a libertarian CEO. The fastest way to end a career there is to try to force a company-wide standard language although many have tried and failed.
- 1971genocide 12y ago
  ppl in HN think in 2014 it really matters what language you use.
- nso95 12y ago
  Jeff is actually known for being a micromanager.

by nutate 12y ago

From sources... Amazon is a heavy Java -> Scala shop. They are probably looking at Clojure to diversify as Scala is hitting some growing pains, but they can still leverage their large JVM expertise.

deepGem 12y ago

Just out of curiosity, what are the pains with Scala that clojure will heal.

threeseed 12y ago
Scala is a combination of OO and Functional. As such there is this "grey" in the middle that is confusing and complex. Combine that with Scala's bewildering type system and I can see why companies move to Java or Clojure.
- digitalzombie 12y ago
  Totally agree with you. I was really into Scala and studying it and everything. I still remember all the scala bloggers I follow, Daniel, Tim MOrris, Paul Snively, etc... Eventually I landed into a scala job role. Oh boy was it different. The other programmers were like type casting to Any or whatever that generalize highest type was (unified type theory). The complexity is pretty high, it's great if you know it all but in all seriousness it was impeding...
  - saryant 12y ago
    > The other programmers were like type casting to Any or whatever that generalize highest type was (unified type theory). As a Scala dev, that is absolutely terrifying. I can't even begin to think of a good reason for that.
    - codygman 12y ago
      It sounds like a Haskell programmer using unsafePerformIO everywhere. Or, perhaps a more apt example would be using Data.Dynamic for everything.
      - saryant 12y ago
        Yeah, casting to Any isn't a "grey area" in Scala's OO/Functional mix, it's just plain crazy.
      - carterschonwald 12y ago
        Those are still pretty safe to do. OTOH, Any drops everything on the floor
      - michaelochurch 12y ago
        unsafePerformIO is for quiche eaters. Real programmers use accursedUnutterablePerformIO. (Ok, but in all seriousness... don't.)
  - deepGem 12y ago
    That's just bad usage of a language feature don't you think. I'm still trying to figure out whether to blame the language because of the way programmers use it. Personally, I like the object + static typing + first class functions as it eliminates 90% of errors at compile time. If any error occurs at run time, am pretty sure it's logical. This is a huge plus. The only drawback - the ridiculous amount of type specific code you have to write for mundane changes/updates.
    - disputin 12y ago
      Reality is: https://departmentfortransport.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/iwm-fence.jpg https://departmentfortransport.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/i...
  - michaelochurch 12y ago
    Scala with mediocre programmers (CommodityScrumDrones writing FactoryVisitor classes) is an outright disaster. The Java community has its flaws (oh boy, does it) but it has adapted to the hordes of mediocrities. Give Scala to mediocre engineers (who typecast to Any, use null instead of Option[T]) and you have the Java hell with worse IDE support and 5x compile times.
    - frowaway001 12y ago
      It's quite easy to disallow all of that.
      - saryant 12y ago
        Yeah, pretty sure you could get WartRemover or one of the other static analysis tools to disallow these sort of egregious violations.

saosebastiao 12y ago

Amazon actually has a pretty interesting history with Lisp. I believe Steve Yegge has written about it before, but I'm not sure. It was pretty much completely gone by the time I got there though. Amazon went from almost completely C++/Lisp to almost completely Java/Ruby over the course of about 5 years. I'm not directly in the dev space, but it appears as though the choice of languages that people use has far more to do with what Builder Tools will support than what people actually want to use. Teams only use Scala or Clojure if they are willing to build it using their convoluted Ant wrapper that doesn't make any sense.

l8erCode 12y ago

From sources... There's not much overlap between the Scala and Clojure folk, so nothing to do with any "growing pains". Scala's seeing much more uptake than Clojure.

nutate 12y ago
Yeah, I can't imagine someone who's proficient with Scala seeing anything special in Clojure. I'm just a sight-seer in those languages, but I can see there are some neat things in both. Parenthesis are always offputting to me, even though I like a fair amount of clojure concepts. I often feel like functional programming has made a cottage industry around putting obfuscated names around relatively simple ideas (see transducers for example)

codeonfire 12y ago

Amazon is literally thousands of shops with a libertarian CEO. The fastest way to end a career there is to try to force a company-wide standard language although many have tried and failed.

1971genocide 12y ago
ppl in HN think in 2014 it really matters what language you use.
nso95 12y ago
Jeff is actually known for being a micromanager.