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As a motorcyclist, I think cyclists should be held to the same rules of the law as other vehicles to make driving predictable and safe. As it stands right now,

As a motorcyclist, I think cyclists should be held to the same rules of the law as other vehicles to make driving predictable and safe. As it stands right now, I have to assume cyclists (via heuristics/profiling) as a wildcard--will they run a red light? Will they weave in and out of traffic unsafely (this is an acceptable practice, when done with ample buffer given their size and speed)? I think cycling is great (I'm also a cyclist as well). But the fact they don't carry a vehicle registration shouldn't exempt them the rules of the public road to make them predictable users (and unpredictable users, such as those erratically lane splitting, jaywalking, reckless driving, under the influence, speeding, etc, should be penalized to encourage predictable use).

k-mcgrady 12y ago
>> "As it stands right now, I have to assume cyclists (via heuristics/profiling) as a wildcard--will they run a red light?" I feel the same as a pedestrian. I can't count the number of times I've had to jump out of the way of a cyclist running a red light. Predictability is important for everyone on the road so following the same rules as other vehicles on the road makes sense.
- jrockway 12y ago
  As a cyclist, I can't count the number of times I've had to slam on the brakes to avoid a pedestrian jaywalking without even looking for traffic. Here's the reality in NYC. Pedestrians ignore traffic laws. Cyclists ignore traffic laws. Cars ignore traffic laws. Everyone does whatever they want 24/7, and focusing on one group isn't going to fix the problem. The problem might even be unfixable.
mikeash 12y ago
Around here (DC area) I have to assume that about drivers too. I've seen drivers blow through red lights, turn right on red from the center lane while pedestrians are trying to cross the street, even drive the wrong way down one-way roads, or on the wrong side of a divided road. Drivers fail to use their turn signals more often than not. Crossing the street in front of a car is a crapshoot, as people will often look left and then proceed without looking straight again. Bicyclists can be a nuisance, but drivers are a menace. I know where I'd like to see enforcement concentrated, and it's not on the bicyclists.
- ohashi 12y ago
  As a driver in DC, I can think of many 'almost accidents' and they are about equally distributed between cars and bicyclists. I see a lot fewer bicyclists though when I'm driving. Anecdotally, I find them far more likely to cause a near accident. With cars, they are larger, easier to see and in general behave more predictably. Sure, they may not signal properly a lot, but I leave enough room between cars to let bad behavior not be dangerous. Bicyclists weave through traffic and ignore all signage. It's a lot harder to drive safely around bicyclists. I see them do all the things you're calling out cars for (no signaling, going wrong way down 1 way streets, weaving through traffic and blowing through red lights). When I'm walking in DC, I don't actually find cars that threatening, I've never been nearly hit by one living here 29 years. Bicyclists here have a dont give a fuck attitude towards every other user of the road/sidewalks though and I've nearly been hit on many occasions .
  - judk 12y ago
    You don't see all the bikes not weaving through traffic, because they...aren't weaving through traffic.
    - ohashi 12y ago
      I do. Because I go holy shit a bike following the rules. I saw one actually stop at an intersection where it's marked stop for pedestrians today. It was amazing.
shittyanalogy 12y ago
I ride as well, but do you honestly think that motorcycles aren't wild cards? How many motorcyclists die or get seriously injured yealry as a result of their own recklessness as opposed to bikes. Do you honestly thing that bicyclists don't view every single motor vehicle as a wild card? The damage tables are enormously shifted.
- jasonjei 12y ago
  I didn't say motorcyclists aren't a wildcard. To be honest, I see motorcyclists often being pulled over for being unpredictable and think it's a good thing. However, motorcyclists do tend to stop at red lights--which can't be said for 50 of the 100 times I've observed cyclists. And in places like California, lane splitting for cyclists and motorcyclists done safely does increase safety, reducing the possibility that you will be rear-ended by a texting driver [1]. Cycling injuries and public road infractions are often under reported or unreported. Cyclists also have less protective gear (Kevlar padding, body armor, leather, less protective helmet). At least vehicles that act like wildcards will eventually be pulled over, and with any luck, lose their driving privileges. You should always assume everyone on the road is a loose cannon--however, that doesn't mean you should be a wildcard in return (e.g not stopping at red lights). [1] Should only be done at stopped or traffic below 15mph. http://www.chp.ca.gov/programs/lanesplitguide.html http://www.chp.ca.gov/programs/lanesplitguide.html
  - sedachv 12y ago
    The CHP recommendations were: "It is not advisable to lane split when traffic flow is at 30 mph or faster" and "Travel at a speed that is no more than 10 MPH faster than other traffic" until "Land a State Job and Become an Instant Millionaire" scumbag Ken Mandler made a complaint to the California Office of Administrative Law: http://jalopnik.com/one-man-just-made-lane-splitting-infinitely-more-danger-1608567066 http://jalopnik.com/one-man-just-made-lane-splitting-infinit... That's 40mph top speed recommendation for lane splitting. In practice I find I sometimes need to lane split at 50mph when traffic is tightly packed - drivers do not see motorcycles in their blind spots and side-view mirrors when you are riding alongside. I have had cars try to merge into me on multiple occasions when I'm taking the full lane and traveling at the speed of traffic. When lane splitting, drivers either see me coming up on them in their side-view mirror (the angle of the side-view mirror works to your and the driver's advantage when you are between lanes), or I can see them prepare to make a lane change by signalling, turning their front wheels when stopped, or just pulling out without looking (which will usually happen ahead of you and give you time to brake - drivers do a much better job of not merging into cars in their blind spots, and that's what makes it safe to travel between two cars).
PJDK 12y ago
As a cyclist (and a pretty law abiding one at that) I absolutely want you to treat me as a wildcard, one that you have to pay extra attention to since I'm in a pretty vulnerable position on the road. It's fine to put cars in a "probably won't do anything unpredictable" box, if the worst comes to the worst there'll be some paperwork to fill in (might not be true for you on a motorbike of course). A cyclist the worst thing that will happen will be to the cyclist.
- jghn 12y ago
  You're ignoring pedestrians in this equation, who are more vulnerable than you.
  - lberlin 12y ago
    The main difference I see between bikes/pedestrians and cars/motorcycles is that there is minimal cost/effort to reverse and change your mind. So, on a bike or on foot, you can jaywalk or run a red light by slowly peeking out and making sure it's safe. If someone with the right of way is coming, you can simple stop and let them by. You absolutely can't do that with a car or motorcycle. My general rule, as both biker and pedestrian, is to not get in the way of others who have the right of way. They shouldn't have to change course or worry about you. Most pedestrians (and plenty bikers too) are absolutely clueluess though. They don't look for bike lanes, they walk in the bikelanes, they jaywalk without looking if a bike (or car) is coming, they open car doors without looking, etc. I think this frustrates a lot of bikers, so they end up not caring and trying to ride through a crosswalk full of pedestrians and doing other asshole things, but I don't think that's the norm. As a reasonable adult, I know I shouldn't jaywalk or run a red light because they are rules, but I have confidence via my senses that I can do that with absolute safety and respect for myself and others.
    - jghn 12y ago
      "is to not get in the way of others who have the right of way" IMO that should be the rule for everyone :) The point I was trying to make was that often in these sorts of debates I see a lot of finger pointing between drivers & cyclists, with the cyclists saying, "Yeah, but we're more vulnerable - you all need to be more careful and allow us to do XYZ". But then they ignore that there's a third party who is even more vulnerable and often the behavior the cyclists propose increases danger to that third party. "that I can do that with absolute safety and respect for myself and others." As I said elsewhere in this thread, I'm AOK with people doing whatever they like in terms of traffic rules as long as it has zero impact on other people. Running red lights, jaywalking, etc - if no one is around, who cares? I jaywalk multiple times a day around the corner from my house - I live just off a busy main drag with very few crosswalks, so I just wait until there's a massive gap in the traffic on both sides and run across. OTOH I see people crossing that street all the time by just walking out and holding their hands up to signal to drivers that they should stop ... sorry, but no.

k-mcgrady 12y ago

>> "As it stands right now, I have to assume cyclists (via heuristics/profiling) as a wildcard--will they run a red light?" I feel the same as a pedestrian. I can't count the number of times I've had to jump out of the way of a cyclist running a red light. Predictability is important for everyone on the road so following the same rules as other vehicles on the road makes sense.

jrockway 12y ago
As a cyclist, I can't count the number of times I've had to slam on the brakes to avoid a pedestrian jaywalking without even looking for traffic. Here's the reality in NYC. Pedestrians ignore traffic laws. Cyclists ignore traffic laws. Cars ignore traffic laws. Everyone does whatever they want 24/7, and focusing on one group isn't going to fix the problem. The problem might even be unfixable.

mikeash 12y ago

Around here (DC area) I have to assume that about drivers too. I've seen drivers blow through red lights, turn right on red from the center lane while pedestrians are trying to cross the street, even drive the wrong way down one-way roads, or on the wrong side of a divided road. Drivers fail to use their turn signals more often than not. Crossing the street in front of a car is a crapshoot, as people will often look left and then proceed without looking straight again. Bicyclists can be a nuisance, but drivers are a menace. I know where I'd like to see enforcement concentrated, and it's not on the bicyclists.

ohashi 12y ago
As a driver in DC, I can think of many 'almost accidents' and they are about equally distributed between cars and bicyclists. I see a lot fewer bicyclists though when I'm driving. Anecdotally, I find them far more likely to cause a near accident. With cars, they are larger, easier to see and in general behave more predictably. Sure, they may not signal properly a lot, but I leave enough room between cars to let bad behavior not be dangerous. Bicyclists weave through traffic and ignore all signage. It's a lot harder to drive safely around bicyclists. I see them do all the things you're calling out cars for (no signaling, going wrong way down 1 way streets, weaving through traffic and blowing through red lights). When I'm walking in DC, I don't actually find cars that threatening, I've never been nearly hit by one living here 29 years. Bicyclists here have a dont give a fuck attitude towards every other user of the road/sidewalks though and I've nearly been hit on many occasions .
- judk 12y ago
  You don't see all the bikes not weaving through traffic, because they...aren't weaving through traffic.
  - ohashi 12y ago
    I do. Because I go holy shit a bike following the rules. I saw one actually stop at an intersection where it's marked stop for pedestrians today. It was amazing.

shittyanalogy 12y ago

I ride as well, but do you honestly think that motorcycles aren't wild cards? How many motorcyclists die or get seriously injured yealry as a result of their own recklessness as opposed to bikes. Do you honestly thing that bicyclists don't view every single motor vehicle as a wild card? The damage tables are enormously shifted.

jasonjei 12y ago
I didn't say motorcyclists aren't a wildcard. To be honest, I see motorcyclists often being pulled over for being unpredictable and think it's a good thing. However, motorcyclists do tend to stop at red lights--which can't be said for 50 of the 100 times I've observed cyclists. And in places like California, lane splitting for cyclists and motorcyclists done safely does increase safety, reducing the possibility that you will be rear-ended by a texting driver [1]. Cycling injuries and public road infractions are often under reported or unreported. Cyclists also have less protective gear (Kevlar padding, body armor, leather, less protective helmet). At least vehicles that act like wildcards will eventually be pulled over, and with any luck, lose their driving privileges. You should always assume everyone on the road is a loose cannon--however, that doesn't mean you should be a wildcard in return (e.g not stopping at red lights). [1] Should only be done at stopped or traffic below 15mph. http://www.chp.ca.gov/programs/lanesplitguide.html http://www.chp.ca.gov/programs/lanesplitguide.html
- sedachv 12y ago
  The CHP recommendations were: "It is not advisable to lane split when traffic flow is at 30 mph or faster" and "Travel at a speed that is no more than 10 MPH faster than other traffic" until "Land a State Job and Become an Instant Millionaire" scumbag Ken Mandler made a complaint to the California Office of Administrative Law: http://jalopnik.com/one-man-just-made-lane-splitting-infinitely-more-danger-1608567066 http://jalopnik.com/one-man-just-made-lane-splitting-infinit... That's 40mph top speed recommendation for lane splitting. In practice I find I sometimes need to lane split at 50mph when traffic is tightly packed - drivers do not see motorcycles in their blind spots and side-view mirrors when you are riding alongside. I have had cars try to merge into me on multiple occasions when I'm taking the full lane and traveling at the speed of traffic. When lane splitting, drivers either see me coming up on them in their side-view mirror (the angle of the side-view mirror works to your and the driver's advantage when you are between lanes), or I can see them prepare to make a lane change by signalling, turning their front wheels when stopped, or just pulling out without looking (which will usually happen ahead of you and give you time to brake - drivers do a much better job of not merging into cars in their blind spots, and that's what makes it safe to travel between two cars).

PJDK 12y ago

As a cyclist (and a pretty law abiding one at that) I absolutely want you to treat me as a wildcard, one that you have to pay extra attention to since I'm in a pretty vulnerable position on the road. It's fine to put cars in a "probably won't do anything unpredictable" box, if the worst comes to the worst there'll be some paperwork to fill in (might not be true for you on a motorbike of course). A cyclist the worst thing that will happen will be to the cyclist.

jghn 12y ago
You're ignoring pedestrians in this equation, who are more vulnerable than you.
- lberlin 12y ago
  The main difference I see between bikes/pedestrians and cars/motorcycles is that there is minimal cost/effort to reverse and change your mind. So, on a bike or on foot, you can jaywalk or run a red light by slowly peeking out and making sure it's safe. If someone with the right of way is coming, you can simple stop and let them by. You absolutely can't do that with a car or motorcycle. My general rule, as both biker and pedestrian, is to not get in the way of others who have the right of way. They shouldn't have to change course or worry about you. Most pedestrians (and plenty bikers too) are absolutely clueluess though. They don't look for bike lanes, they walk in the bikelanes, they jaywalk without looking if a bike (or car) is coming, they open car doors without looking, etc. I think this frustrates a lot of bikers, so they end up not caring and trying to ride through a crosswalk full of pedestrians and doing other asshole things, but I don't think that's the norm. As a reasonable adult, I know I shouldn't jaywalk or run a red light because they are rules, but I have confidence via my senses that I can do that with absolute safety and respect for myself and others.
  - jghn 12y ago
    "is to not get in the way of others who have the right of way" IMO that should be the rule for everyone :) The point I was trying to make was that often in these sorts of debates I see a lot of finger pointing between drivers & cyclists, with the cyclists saying, "Yeah, but we're more vulnerable - you all need to be more careful and allow us to do XYZ". But then they ignore that there's a third party who is even more vulnerable and often the behavior the cyclists propose increases danger to that third party. "that I can do that with absolute safety and respect for myself and others." As I said elsewhere in this thread, I'm AOK with people doing whatever they like in terms of traffic rules as long as it has zero impact on other people. Running red lights, jaywalking, etc - if no one is around, who cares? I jaywalk multiple times a day around the corner from my house - I live just off a busy main drag with very few crosswalks, so I just wait until there's a massive gap in the traffic on both sides and run across. OTOH I see people crossing that street all the time by just walking out and holding their hands up to signal to drivers that they should stop ... sorry, but no.