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I've been a Javascript and Node skeptic for years now but I think the tide is finally turning. So much time and energy has been poured into making JS better tha

I've been a Javascript and Node skeptic for years now but I think the tide is finally turning. So much time and energy has been poured into making JS better that it's finally starting to pay off. Javascript with all the ES6 enhancements is really not a bad language. The runtime performance is already very good and continually getting better. Tools like Typescript and Flow make dealing with larger code bases much easier. I don't think the other "scripting" languages like Ruby, Python, and PHP stand much of a chance against it in the longer term. They just don't have the resources to compete.

empthought 12y ago
I don't see why Ruby, Python or PHP can't compete, if Dart, TypeScript, Coffeescript, JSX, Elm, purescript, ClojureScript, etc. can all still be things.
remon 12y ago
I think in this instance JavaScript has to compete with Java, C#, go, erlang, etc. rather than the other "scripting" languages. I don't think many would argue JavaScript isn't comfortably #1 within that domain.
- arms 12y ago
  I'm genuinely curious why you think JavaScript is comfortably #1 within the domain of Python, Ruby and PHP. I've been writing (client side) JavaScript for a very long time, and I generally enjoy it, but I don't see myself abandoning Python on the server side for JavaScript anytime soon. (edited for clarification)
  - jbergens 12y ago
    But is that because you like Python, have a large code base that takes time to convert, is missing some tools, don't think javascript is mature enough or something else? I use C# myself and would not like to convert our whole app to js but I could be ok with Dart or TypeScript instead (or Go but that is not a scripting language).
  - remon 12y ago
    I didn't argue JavaScript is #1 on the server side, simply that it's the language with the most traction when it comes to that group of languages (of which Python is no part by the way, PHP and Ruby are though). I wouldn't touch JavaScript on the server side with a 10 feet pole.
peterwwillis 12y ago
I'm not sure if this is a troll, or if you actually think any non-web developers would volunteer to learn Javascript just to write application code.
- calebm 12y ago
  I did. I was very much a skeptic of Node.js, but the tools and libraries won me over. So much work is being done to make Javascript a viable platform.
  - _asummers 12y ago
    Out of curiosity, what did you program in before you learned node?
    - xeromal 12y ago
      I switched from WPF, C# dev to Angular JS with Typescript and Web API with relative ease and I'm digging it. Typescript definitely helped though. I know I have plenty more to learn, but it's not as shitty as people make it out to be.
      - delluminatus 12y ago
        If you're using Web API (built on ASP.NET) then you're not using Node, which is a Web server written in Javascript. But I do think it's cool that someone can transition from WPF to Web development with Angular without feeling too lost. Dynamic Web development used to be a very, very different ballgame from client application development.
        hokkos 12y ago
        Angular looks at lot like WPF (on the surface)
        grunter 12y ago
        What if you use Node to serve up the client and use Web API as the back end which you make calls to?
tootie 12y ago
I disagree. Every time I try to get into node, I am stonewalled by poor debugging support. I end up wading through obtuse stack traces only to find poor quality libraries are the culprit. Tracing dynamic languages is so hard already. The only thing I can tolerate is Python with Werkzeug.
- spion 12y ago
  We use 1. Bluebird with longStackTraces, [1] to get complete stack traces for an entire chain of async operations with minimal performance penalty, and 2. node-debug from node-inspector [2] as a debugger (same UI and features as chrome dev tools) [1]: https://github.com/petkaantonov/bluebird https://github.com/petkaantonov/bluebird [2]: https://github.com/node-inspector/node-inspector https://github.com/node-inspector/node-inspector
al2o3cr 12y ago
"Javascript with all the ES6 enhancements is really not a bad language." File under "damning with faint praise", methinks. Not sure what it means if the "not all that bad" version is one that doesn't run natively anywhere yet...
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
  - shetter 12y ago
    Pretty sure he meant natively in the browser
ChrisAntaki 12y ago
> The runtime performance is already very good and continually getting better Have you checked out the Computer Benchmarks Game? Here are some benchmarks they provide, comparing the JavaScript V8 to Python [1], Ruby [2], and PHP [3]. Looking at statistics such as these, I'm left thinking, "1. This is awesome! 2. Is there something about these other languages that prevents V8-like performance, or is this more a matter of browser performance being highly invested in by Google, Mozilla, etc.?" [1] http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/u64/benchmark.php?test=all&lang=v8&lang2=python3&data=u64 http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/u64/benchmark.php?te... [2] http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/u64/benchmark.php?test=all&lang=v8&lang2=yarv&data=u64 http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/u64/benchmark.php?te... [3] http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/u64/benchmark.php?test=all&lang=v8&lang2=php&data=u64 http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/u64/benchmark.php?te...
- bad_user 12y ago
  That's not an objective comparison, since Javascript has been optimized to deal with arrays and numbers, as that's one main use-case that people have in the browser. Take a look at the source code and tell me if that's the kind of code that you write.
  - ChrisAntaki 12y ago
    > That's not an objective comparison, since Javascript has been optimized to deal with arrays and numbers What were your thoughts on the regex-dna benchmark?
    - meowface 12y ago
      V8 is able to compile PCREs directly into efficient machine code (in some cases at least), CPython is not. See: http://blog.chromium.org/2009/02/irregexp-google-chromes-new-regexp.html http://blog.chromium.org/2009/02/irregexp-google-chromes-new...
      - ChrisAntaki 12y ago

empthought 12y ago

I don't see why Ruby, Python or PHP can't compete, if Dart, TypeScript, Coffeescript, JSX, Elm, purescript, ClojureScript, etc. can all still be things.

remon 12y ago

I think in this instance JavaScript has to compete with Java, C#, go, erlang, etc. rather than the other "scripting" languages. I don't think many would argue JavaScript isn't comfortably #1 within that domain.

arms 12y ago
I'm genuinely curious why you think JavaScript is comfortably #1 within the domain of Python, Ruby and PHP. I've been writing (client side) JavaScript for a very long time, and I generally enjoy it, but I don't see myself abandoning Python on the server side for JavaScript anytime soon. (edited for clarification)
- jbergens 12y ago
  But is that because you like Python, have a large code base that takes time to convert, is missing some tools, don't think javascript is mature enough or something else? I use C# myself and would not like to convert our whole app to js but I could be ok with Dart or TypeScript instead (or Go but that is not a scripting language).
- remon 12y ago
  I didn't argue JavaScript is #1 on the server side, simply that it's the language with the most traction when it comes to that group of languages (of which Python is no part by the way, PHP and Ruby are though). I wouldn't touch JavaScript on the server side with a 10 feet pole.

peterwwillis 12y ago

I'm not sure if this is a troll, or if you actually think any non-web developers would volunteer to learn Javascript just to write application code.

calebm 12y ago
I did. I was very much a skeptic of Node.js, but the tools and libraries won me over. So much work is being done to make Javascript a viable platform.
- _asummers 12y ago
  Out of curiosity, what did you program in before you learned node?
  - xeromal 12y ago
    I switched from WPF, C# dev to Angular JS with Typescript and Web API with relative ease and I'm digging it. Typescript definitely helped though. I know I have plenty more to learn, but it's not as shitty as people make it out to be.
    - delluminatus 12y ago
      If you're using Web API (built on ASP.NET) then you're not using Node, which is a Web server written in Javascript. But I do think it's cool that someone can transition from WPF to Web development with Angular without feeling too lost. Dynamic Web development used to be a very, very different ballgame from client application development.
      - hokkos 12y ago
        Angular looks at lot like WPF (on the surface)
      - grunter 12y ago
        What if you use Node to serve up the client and use Web API as the back end which you make calls to?

tootie 12y ago

I disagree. Every time I try to get into node, I am stonewalled by poor debugging support. I end up wading through obtuse stack traces only to find poor quality libraries are the culprit. Tracing dynamic languages is so hard already. The only thing I can tolerate is Python with Werkzeug.

spion 12y ago
We use 1. Bluebird with longStackTraces, [1] to get complete stack traces for an entire chain of async operations with minimal performance penalty, and 2. node-debug from node-inspector [2] as a debugger (same UI and features as chrome dev tools) [1]: https://github.com/petkaantonov/bluebird https://github.com/petkaantonov/bluebird [2]: https://github.com/node-inspector/node-inspector https://github.com/node-inspector/node-inspector

al2o3cr 12y ago

"Javascript with all the ES6 enhancements is really not a bad language." File under "damning with faint praise", methinks. Not sure what it means if the "not all that bad" version is one that doesn't run natively anywhere yet...

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
- shetter 12y ago
  Pretty sure he meant natively in the browser

ChrisAntaki 12y ago

> The runtime performance is already very good and continually getting better Have you checked out the Computer Benchmarks Game? Here are some benchmarks they provide, comparing the JavaScript V8 to Python [1], Ruby [2], and PHP [3]. Looking at statistics such as these, I'm left thinking, "1. This is awesome! 2. Is there something about these other languages that prevents V8-like performance, or is this more a matter of browser performance being highly invested in by Google, Mozilla, etc.?" [1] http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/u64/benchmark.php?test=all&lang=v8&lang2=python3&data=u64 http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/u64/benchmark.php?te... [2] http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/u64/benchmark.php?test=all&lang=v8&lang2=yarv&data=u64 http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/u64/benchmark.php?te... [3] http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/u64/benchmark.php?test=all&lang=v8&lang2=php&data=u64 http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/u64/benchmark.php?te...

bad_user 12y ago
That's not an objective comparison, since Javascript has been optimized to deal with arrays and numbers, as that's one main use-case that people have in the browser. Take a look at the source code and tell me if that's the kind of code that you write.
- ChrisAntaki 12y ago
  > That's not an objective comparison, since Javascript has been optimized to deal with arrays and numbers What were your thoughts on the regex-dna benchmark?
  - meowface 12y ago
    V8 is able to compile PCREs directly into efficient machine code (in some cases at least), CPython is not. See: http://blog.chromium.org/2009/02/irregexp-google-chromes-new-regexp.html http://blog.chromium.org/2009/02/irregexp-google-chromes-new...
    - ChrisAntaki 12y ago