7 ms·

How Should Secular People Approach Sacred Art?

34 points by benbreen 12y ago

yason 12y ago
I don't quite understand the problem here. Art comes from a culture, and there are different cultures. Some are secular, others not so much. They all produce art. Good art is good art, regardless of the background. It might open up in a different way for a person who shares the cultural or religious context but that's just one way to look at it and that doesn't mean other views would get any less. I fail to see why would anyone disregard a beautiful fresco just because Christians paid the artist to paint it for them. It's not exactly as if the fresco would try to convert its audience.
- tragic 12y ago
  I don't think many people would, really; but I certainly remember becoming a militant atheist at the age of 6, and resenting every encounter with a hymn or a christmas carol for most of the rest of my school days. I needed to take a long detour through black metal before I could appreciate sacred music (and while I appreciate the importance of Renaissance art to the development of human culture, I find still that there are only so many paintings of Jesus and martyred saints I can look at consecutively before my eyes glaze over). So I can certainly imagine there being people out there, like my 8-14 year old self, who really don't like religion to the point that they can't appreciate religious art at all. If the subject matter really does set your teeth on edge, you're not going to appreciate the beauty. Art isn't just a thing; it's an interplay between the thing and the viewer/listener etc. If there's no open port on the receiver, the message won't get through.
  - hga 12y ago
    "I find still that there are only so many paintings of Jesus and martyred saints I can look at consecutively before my eyes glaze over" Heh, that I can believe. Fortunately there's a lot of other sacred visual art to view, for example, look at the many depictions of the archangel Michael over the years in the Wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_(archangel) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_(archangel) One thing I find very interesting about these works is the application of a society's current aesthetics in depicting a figure from a fixed, much earlier time.
carsongross 12y ago
An I approach I have found fruitful is working backwards, while contrasting it with secular art.
thisjepisje 12y ago
The article is mostly about visual art, but religious music is also very enjoyable IMO. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkAa3Zdx6Ro https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkAa3Zdx6Ro The "Dies Irae" theme is used a lot in classical music, for example this Totentanz by Liszt: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUMR_D6G_Sw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUMR_D6G_Sw Gesualdo's Madrigals are sublime, too.
- adwf 12y ago
  I was about to say the very same. There are so many beautiful pieces of religious music, it would be a crying shame to dismiss them simply because you don't believe in the subject matter. Afterall, most of the history of the human race has been dominated by religion in some form or another, it's a bit silly to disregard all of that.
  - carlob 12y ago
    Let's take a moment to remember Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9Ui2deAKr8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9Ui2deAKr8 If I recall correctly this is a love song that takes a deeper spiritual meaning in the context of qawwali.
- hga 12y ago
  For regular doses of "Great Sacred Music" of all periods, from Early Music to Modern, I strongly recommend the program by that name which is aired on Sundays, 8-11 US Eastern time by WCPE, The Classical Station, which has Internet feeds: http://theclassicalstation.org/ http://theclassicalstation.org/
  - thisjepisje 12y ago
    Thanks, I'll check it out.
carapace 12y ago
The sacredness is hardly in the art. In the presence of sacred art there are no secular people. (Meaning that "the sacred" is precisely that which moves you beyond the mundane.)
- Retric 12y ago
  Your cultural bias is showing. Without the right background nothing inherently separates religious and secular art. And there is nothing universal about what moves people. Note: There are a few preferences that show up across cultures on average, but there not universal within a culture.
  - carapace 12y ago
    You seem to be making the same point I was attempting to make.
  - Alex3917 12y ago
    > And there is nothing universal about what moves people. Birth, death, time, nature, space...
    - ashark 12y ago
      Strongly agree. I order most of my books chronologically. In the far top-left are English translations of works from ~5000 years ago. They're so remote that, though bits and pieces of them survive as faint echoes through the centuries scattered across a hundred peoples, these are dead cultures. These pre-date early dates for the composition of the Torah by better than a millennium. Some of the authors were as ancient to Homer as Julius Caesar is to us. Their literature is often quirky and even alien to a modern reader. The broad strokes, though? The themes, the underlying humanity of the characters and the author? Rarely do they not feel entirely familiar. Honoring, pleading with, boasting to, daring, threatening the gods. Terrified of death and eager to make a lasting mark on the world. Writing propaganda, hagiographies, libel and honest praise. Teaching and exploring. Full of doubt, hope, love, hate, pride, jealously, and a sense of justice. Funny, clever, evil little humans. Just like us.
serve_yay 12y ago
I am a man, nothing human is alien to me.
jayvanguard 12y ago
Good article, but why is Rothko mentioned in the same breath as Fra Angelico?
- Alex3917 12y ago
  I would argue that Rothko is one of the most talented painters ever to live. Whereas everyone else before him was trying to show off how good they were at painting, he was focused on making stuff that actually looked good on people's walls. That sort of empathy for users is the same key ingredient that's behind so many really successful entrepreneurs.
  - prewett 12y ago
    I've never understood why people like Rothko's work. I look at his stuff and say "I could do this myself with 2 - 3 colors of paint and 10 minutes with a paint roller." What am I missing here? Is his talent understanding his market or artistic (or both)?
    - waterlesscloud 12y ago
      Rothko's work doesn't come across well in reproductions. The scale, texture, and subtle color variations all matter. I felt much the same as you until I saw them in person. In particular at the Rothko room at the Philips Collection in Washington DC, with Rothkos on all the walls. In any case, Rothkos aren't about representation (obviously), but about the feeling the painting brings about in the viewer. For me it's best not to assign them any meaning at all, but just take them in. Nothing comes across for me from pictures in books or online though. It's a completely in-person experience.
      - anigbrowl 12y ago
        My wife and I spent hours looking at them when SF MoMA had an exhibition a few years ago and we both left the exhibit pretty frustrated. They just don't speak to me, whereas I could stare at a Jackson Pollock painting for ages. Well, de gustibus non est disputandem and all that...
jqm 12y ago
Myself, as a secular person, the way I approach religious art is the same way I approach non-religious art. I give it a brief glance and a slight nod (if nod worthy which usually I don't feel is the case), then I proceed to ignore it. Most of what is called art isn't in my opinion anyway so I usually don't even bother with that. There is some cool stuff for sure, Burning Man comes to mind, especially before the steampunk infestation. But generally I wonder why people waste their time. I do however (nearly) fall to my knees in worshipful rapture at a good piece of technical work be it a building, a vaccine or a piece of code. But it has to be functional or I don't care about it beyond a glance. And efficiency and functionality it what makes it beautiful to me. I'm guessing this view might be considered by some to be a disorder and it probably correlates with my lack of religiosity. As a side effect of said disorder, I simply don't care what these kind of people think.
tinco 12y ago
"What does it mean to be moved by the beauty of a vision you can’t believe to be true?" It doesn't mean anything, it's just like we like fantasy and science fiction, it's the remote worlds filled with wonder, evil and heroic deeds. My favourite musical is Jesus Christ Super Star. How can you not love the song 'Gethsemane' in which Jesus struggles between taking the rough road and dying for his cause, or escaping now and living in peace with the things he has achieved so far? Let alone that he isn't even sure that his death will be justified? You don't have to be a theist to appreciate that. (As I am not)

34 points by benbreen 12y ago

yason 12y ago

I don't quite understand the problem here. Art comes from a culture, and there are different cultures. Some are secular, others not so much. They all produce art. Good art is good art, regardless of the background. It might open up in a different way for a person who shares the cultural or religious context but that's just one way to look at it and that doesn't mean other views would get any less. I fail to see why would anyone disregard a beautiful fresco just because Christians paid the artist to paint it for them. It's not exactly as if the fresco would try to convert its audience.

tragic 12y ago
I don't think many people would, really; but I certainly remember becoming a militant atheist at the age of 6, and resenting every encounter with a hymn or a christmas carol for most of the rest of my school days. I needed to take a long detour through black metal before I could appreciate sacred music (and while I appreciate the importance of Renaissance art to the development of human culture, I find still that there are only so many paintings of Jesus and martyred saints I can look at consecutively before my eyes glaze over). So I can certainly imagine there being people out there, like my 8-14 year old self, who really don't like religion to the point that they can't appreciate religious art at all. If the subject matter really does set your teeth on edge, you're not going to appreciate the beauty. Art isn't just a thing; it's an interplay between the thing and the viewer/listener etc. If there's no open port on the receiver, the message won't get through.
- hga 12y ago
  "I find still that there are only so many paintings of Jesus and martyred saints I can look at consecutively before my eyes glaze over" Heh, that I can believe. Fortunately there's a lot of other sacred visual art to view, for example, look at the many depictions of the archangel Michael over the years in the Wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_(archangel) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_(archangel) One thing I find very interesting about these works is the application of a society's current aesthetics in depicting a figure from a fixed, much earlier time.

carsongross 12y ago

An I approach I have found fruitful is working backwards, while contrasting it with secular art.

thisjepisje 12y ago

The article is mostly about visual art, but religious music is also very enjoyable IMO. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkAa3Zdx6Ro https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkAa3Zdx6Ro The "Dies Irae" theme is used a lot in classical music, for example this Totentanz by Liszt: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUMR_D6G_Sw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUMR_D6G_Sw Gesualdo's Madrigals are sublime, too.

adwf 12y ago
I was about to say the very same. There are so many beautiful pieces of religious music, it would be a crying shame to dismiss them simply because you don't believe in the subject matter. Afterall, most of the history of the human race has been dominated by religion in some form or another, it's a bit silly to disregard all of that.
- carlob 12y ago
  Let's take a moment to remember Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9Ui2deAKr8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9Ui2deAKr8 If I recall correctly this is a love song that takes a deeper spiritual meaning in the context of qawwali.
hga 12y ago
For regular doses of "Great Sacred Music" of all periods, from Early Music to Modern, I strongly recommend the program by that name which is aired on Sundays, 8-11 US Eastern time by WCPE, The Classical Station, which has Internet feeds: http://theclassicalstation.org/ http://theclassicalstation.org/
- thisjepisje 12y ago
  Thanks, I'll check it out.

carapace 12y ago

The sacredness is hardly in the art. In the presence of sacred art there are no secular people. (Meaning that "the sacred" is precisely that which moves you beyond the mundane.)

Retric 12y ago
Your cultural bias is showing. Without the right background nothing inherently separates religious and secular art. And there is nothing universal about what moves people. Note: There are a few preferences that show up across cultures on average, but there not universal within a culture.
- carapace 12y ago
  You seem to be making the same point I was attempting to make.
- Alex3917 12y ago
  > And there is nothing universal about what moves people. Birth, death, time, nature, space...
  - ashark 12y ago
    Strongly agree. I order most of my books chronologically. In the far top-left are English translations of works from ~5000 years ago. They're so remote that, though bits and pieces of them survive as faint echoes through the centuries scattered across a hundred peoples, these are dead cultures. These pre-date early dates for the composition of the Torah by better than a millennium. Some of the authors were as ancient to Homer as Julius Caesar is to us. Their literature is often quirky and even alien to a modern reader. The broad strokes, though? The themes, the underlying humanity of the characters and the author? Rarely do they not feel entirely familiar. Honoring, pleading with, boasting to, daring, threatening the gods. Terrified of death and eager to make a lasting mark on the world. Writing propaganda, hagiographies, libel and honest praise. Teaching and exploring. Full of doubt, hope, love, hate, pride, jealously, and a sense of justice. Funny, clever, evil little humans. Just like us.

serve_yay 12y ago

I am a man, nothing human is alien to me.

jayvanguard 12y ago

Good article, but why is Rothko mentioned in the same breath as Fra Angelico?

Alex3917 12y ago
I would argue that Rothko is one of the most talented painters ever to live. Whereas everyone else before him was trying to show off how good they were at painting, he was focused on making stuff that actually looked good on people's walls. That sort of empathy for users is the same key ingredient that's behind so many really successful entrepreneurs.
- prewett 12y ago
  I've never understood why people like Rothko's work. I look at his stuff and say "I could do this myself with 2 - 3 colors of paint and 10 minutes with a paint roller." What am I missing here? Is his talent understanding his market or artistic (or both)?
  - waterlesscloud 12y ago
    Rothko's work doesn't come across well in reproductions. The scale, texture, and subtle color variations all matter. I felt much the same as you until I saw them in person. In particular at the Rothko room at the Philips Collection in Washington DC, with Rothkos on all the walls. In any case, Rothkos aren't about representation (obviously), but about the feeling the painting brings about in the viewer. For me it's best not to assign them any meaning at all, but just take them in. Nothing comes across for me from pictures in books or online though. It's a completely in-person experience.
    - anigbrowl 12y ago
      My wife and I spent hours looking at them when SF MoMA had an exhibition a few years ago and we both left the exhibit pretty frustrated. They just don't speak to me, whereas I could stare at a Jackson Pollock painting for ages. Well, de gustibus non est disputandem and all that...

jqm 12y ago

Myself, as a secular person, the way I approach religious art is the same way I approach non-religious art. I give it a brief glance and a slight nod (if nod worthy which usually I don't feel is the case), then I proceed to ignore it. Most of what is called art isn't in my opinion anyway so I usually don't even bother with that. There is some cool stuff for sure, Burning Man comes to mind, especially before the steampunk infestation. But generally I wonder why people waste their time. I do however (nearly) fall to my knees in worshipful rapture at a good piece of technical work be it a building, a vaccine or a piece of code. But it has to be functional or I don't care about it beyond a glance. And efficiency and functionality it what makes it beautiful to me. I'm guessing this view might be considered by some to be a disorder and it probably correlates with my lack of religiosity. As a side effect of said disorder, I simply don't care what these kind of people think.

tinco 12y ago

"What does it mean to be moved by the beauty of a vision you can’t believe to be true?" It doesn't mean anything, it's just like we like fantasy and science fiction, it's the remote worlds filled with wonder, evil and heroic deeds. My favourite musical is Jesus Christ Super Star. How can you not love the song 'Gethsemane' in which Jesus struggles between taking the rough road and dying for his cause, or escaping now and living in peace with the things he has achieved so far? Let alone that he isn't even sure that his death will be justified? You don't have to be a theist to appreciate that. (As I am not)