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> If this is how you truly felt, why did you post your blog to HN? Obviously so we could read something he thinks is a discovery. On the rest of what you've s

by krick 12y ago

> If this is how you truly felt, why did you post your blog to HN? Obviously so we could read something he thinks is a discovery. On the rest of what you've said… Funny that however I obviously agree with the whole point of your post, I disagree with almost every single argument you made. "Pointless" is pretty much about being opposite to "something that works". If it does work it's not pointless. If it doesn't — it very much might be. So everything depends on definition of "working", which is different in different situations, depending on what result we want to get from our activities. Consequently, all of your "education-based" examples are bad, as somebody might claim Cisco certification, school and/or college are pointless and even be completely right. In the most philosophical sense nothing is really pointless of course, but if you are coming to me asking for advice you probably don't want the "most philosophical answer" and depending on your goals and personality (even in very broad sense) I could declare many popular things people are paying for as "pointless" for you. Because they "don't work", or the costs/profit ratio is too high compared to other options. Your "math" example is also quite unfortunate (however I must warn you I haven't read the article you are referring to), as if there actually was disagreement on if something is or isn't a proof — it really could and should be "legitimately dismissed". It might not be actually wrong, but you either accept something as proof, or you don't. Now, it's true that there isn't one good definition on what proof actually is. Actually, there are doubts that that definition is even possible. And it's nothing new, it's almost 100 years now that this is a problem for mathematical society. So how my last two points go together? Perfectly fine, actually, because depending on your views on the problem of defining proof something can or can not be proof, and these views can differ drastically depending on whether you are a member of Bourbaki group or a layman. For example, Alexander Grothendieck dismissed (quite "legitimately", by the way) the famous proof of "4 color theorem" and he is completely fine mathematician, and that proof is something that you will probably claim to be proof. The similar problems I see in your "different languages" example, but it would take a bit longer to explain, so whatever. Methodologies and even many of quite arguable "best practices" aren't pointless, because they do work, not because "disagreement doesn't matter". Actually, I would claim that disagreement does matter, because there's a good chance that one side will be proven to be "more right" than the other over time. Yet even the "less right" one is often much better than nothing, especially because the one "absolutely right" opinion doesn't exist anyway.

jasode 12y ago
>Obviously so we could read something he thinks is a discovery. Then I may have misunderstood the discussion functionality of HN. I've never submitted a story so excuse my ignorance for asking: when you submit an article, is there an option to disable all followup comments so that the post is "read-only"? (Which means the OP forgot to check that option.) If that functionality doesn't exist, I don't understand how anyone would post to HN but not want commentary. >Consequently, all of your "education-based" examples are bad, as somebody might claim Cisco certification, school and/or college are pointless and even be completely right. I agree with that but that's not my point at all. You're talking about a case-by-case situation of delivering education (some of it good, some of it bad) and the subsequent extraction of economic value from time invested (repay school loans, opportunity cost, money wasted.) Maybe someone should drop out of school because he has great card playing skills and wants to bet his income potential on winning World Series Poker championship. Or maybe he's an autodidact and can learn iOS and Android on his own to a $100k salary. Scenarios like that are not relevant to my point. What I was talking about was something else. It was the idea and concept of education. My point is that just because teachers, politicians, and parents disagree on what "education" is does not mean the idea of education is pointless. >Now, it's true that there isn't one good definition on what proof actually is. Right. And yet, we as a civilization can still benefit from "math proofs" in spite of the fact that there are some philosophical differences on what "proof" is. >arguable "best practices" aren't pointless, because they do work, not because "disagreement doesn't matter". I wasn't stating this. I said something different: that "best practices" are not disqualified because of disagreements. I did not say "best practices" are good because of disagreements. Those are 2 very different sentences and I did not write what you think I wrote.
- krick 12y ago
  Well, "education" is too vague term to speak of then, because, really, it's still a question if obligatory school education is more harmful or helpful, even goals themselves aren't defined good enough here to decide if something "works" or not. But, yes, I understand that wasn't your point either. > And yet, we as a civilization can still benefit from "math proofs" in spite of the fact that there are some philosophical differences on what "proof" is. Not really. You don't generally benefit from proofs being correct. You benefit from something you think is correct works well for your purposes, and it usually isn't proof itself, but some result derived from it. It's actually considered even paradoxical, that our math "works so well" despite of very foundations of it being proved "not working". It's like… well, I cannot remember good enough example right away, but consider different folk beliefs: many of them are actually pretty good advices, but not because there are some true reasoning behind them, but simply because they advice to do something in some situation that occurs to be helpful in case of phenomenon which in real life often occurs along with described situation. So some enlightened gentleman who is against silly superstitions and can show that "proof is incorrect" only suffers from that, because despite "proof being incorrect" the adviced behavior is still the safest one. And by the way I don't only mean "philosophical problems" like ones we've got after Goëdel. I remember being told when I was a kid that mathematics are very old science, that it was used and developed by ancient persians, egyptians, etc. And, well, it was. So years later I was really, really astonished to learn how frivolous to say at least that "mathematics" was. Many things that we know as theorems today weren't actually theorems back then (which isn't surprising by itself, because the mathematical notation itself is very late invention, but I expected the essence of it to be the same), but more like beliefs or pretty redundant technical recipes on how to make this or that thing done. Even one comparatively late and "truly mathematical" text — Euclid's "Elements", that is, — isn't without faults. Many of his proofs weren't proofs by any today's standards, or even by standards of 100 years ago. Many of his very basic statements were dismissed later as being redundant or incorrect or simply pointless in the sense that "they mean nothing" in the context of maths. Still, as you know that work of his was quite helpful for later generations. > Those are 2 very different sentences and I did not write what you think I wrote. Actually not, I didn't think what you think I did think you wrote. I understood you correctly. I said that ["best practices" are not disqualified because of disagreements] isn't the most correct thing to say, because if there is disagreement between adepts of "best practice A" and contradictory "best practice B" it's very much possible — even likely — that "best practice A" could and should be disqualified in favor of "best practice B", because the second one is objectively more beneficial (and then it would be "disqualified because of disagreements" indeed). Yet because world isn't black and white "best practice A" could also be working, so if you stick with A it could be better than nothing at all.

by krick 12y ago

jasode 12y ago

>Obviously so we could read something he thinks is a discovery. Then I may have misunderstood the discussion functionality of HN. I've never submitted a story so excuse my ignorance for asking: when you submit an article, is there an option to disable all followup comments so that the post is "read-only"? (Which means the OP forgot to check that option.) If that functionality doesn't exist, I don't understand how anyone would post to HN but not want commentary. >Consequently, all of your "education-based" examples are bad, as somebody might claim Cisco certification, school and/or college are pointless and even be completely right. I agree with that but that's not my point at all. You're talking about a case-by-case situation of delivering education (some of it good, some of it bad) and the subsequent extraction of economic value from time invested (repay school loans, opportunity cost, money wasted.) Maybe someone should drop out of school because he has great card playing skills and wants to bet his income potential on winning World Series Poker championship. Or maybe he's an autodidact and can learn iOS and Android on his own to a $100k salary. Scenarios like that are not relevant to my point. What I was talking about was something else. It was the idea and concept of education. My point is that just because teachers, politicians, and parents disagree on what "education" is does not mean the idea of education is pointless. >Now, it's true that there isn't one good definition on what proof actually is. Right. And yet, we as a civilization can still benefit from "math proofs" in spite of the fact that there are some philosophical differences on what "proof" is. >arguable "best practices" aren't pointless, because they do work, not because "disagreement doesn't matter". I wasn't stating this. I said something different: that "best practices" are not disqualified because of disagreements. I did not say "best practices" are good because of disagreements. Those are 2 very different sentences and I did not write what you think I wrote.

krick 12y ago
Well, "education" is too vague term to speak of then, because, really, it's still a question if obligatory school education is more harmful or helpful, even goals themselves aren't defined good enough here to decide if something "works" or not. But, yes, I understand that wasn't your point either. > And yet, we as a civilization can still benefit from "math proofs" in spite of the fact that there are some philosophical differences on what "proof" is. Not really. You don't generally benefit from proofs being correct. You benefit from something you think is correct works well for your purposes, and it usually isn't proof itself, but some result derived from it. It's actually considered even paradoxical, that our math "works so well" despite of very foundations of it being proved "not working". It's like… well, I cannot remember good enough example right away, but consider different folk beliefs: many of them are actually pretty good advices, but not because there are some true reasoning behind them, but simply because they advice to do something in some situation that occurs to be helpful in case of phenomenon which in real life often occurs along with described situation. So some enlightened gentleman who is against silly superstitions and can show that "proof is incorrect" only suffers from that, because despite "proof being incorrect" the adviced behavior is still the safest one. And by the way I don't only mean "philosophical problems" like ones we've got after Goëdel. I remember being told when I was a kid that mathematics are very old science, that it was used and developed by ancient persians, egyptians, etc. And, well, it was. So years later I was really, really astonished to learn how frivolous to say at least that "mathematics" was. Many things that we know as theorems today weren't actually theorems back then (which isn't surprising by itself, because the mathematical notation itself is very late invention, but I expected the essence of it to be the same), but more like beliefs or pretty redundant technical recipes on how to make this or that thing done. Even one comparatively late and "truly mathematical" text — Euclid's "Elements", that is, — isn't without faults. Many of his proofs weren't proofs by any today's standards, or even by standards of 100 years ago. Many of his very basic statements were dismissed later as being redundant or incorrect or simply pointless in the sense that "they mean nothing" in the context of maths. Still, as you know that work of his was quite helpful for later generations. > Those are 2 very different sentences and I did not write what you think I wrote. Actually not, I didn't think what you think I did think you wrote. I understood you correctly. I said that ["best practices" are not disqualified because of disagreements] isn't the most correct thing to say, because if there is disagreement between adepts of "best practice A" and contradictory "best practice B" it's very much possible — even likely — that "best practice A" could and should be disqualified in favor of "best practice B", because the second one is objectively more beneficial (and then it would be "disqualified because of disagreements" indeed). Yet because world isn't black and white "best practice A" could also be working, so if you stick with A it could be better than nothing at all.