6 ms·

He is not racist. As you said it His racism probably isn't his fault. It's probably a factor of his condition. Does not make him a racist.

by seivan 12y ago

67726e 12y ago
My parents raised me to be a racist. It's not my fault, it's my upbringing. Any attempts to otherwise convince me are just a conspiracy brought on both those pesky inferior races. Wanna play have a philosophical debate? Or can we agree that someone who espouses racist ideology is, in fact, a racist.
- lomnakkus 12y ago
  Wrong. People may say racist things without necessarily being racist. The difference between "being X-ist" and "saying X-ist thing" is basically predicated on having a "persistent belief that X" or having a "momentary belief that X". (I'm using "belief" in the philosophical sense.)
  - 67726e 12y ago
    When you consistently espouse racist ideology, you're a racist. Or maybe a performance artist disguised as a Kazakh journalist, but most probably a racist. It could be that he just says these things all the time for the hell of it, or it could be that he believes what he says. I'll leave determining which is more likely as an exercise to the reader.
    - lomnakkus 12y ago
      I was mostly talking about a person who cannot actually realize that they're saying racist things (through impairment of their faculties), but I guess I kind of formulated that badly. I certainly didn't mean to be some sort of apologist. FWIW, I was thinking of this with my original comment: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbdxeFcQtaU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbdxeFcQtaU (... but I see that it doesn't necessarily apply in this context.)
    - seivan 12y ago
      It's this sorta wording that has watered down the word "racist" and "islamophobic". This is from a Kurd/Iranian with a muslim background living in Sweden. This thinking is also conventionally and conveniently used by white relativist liberals living in predominately white neighbourhoods. Not saying you are. It's just it's what I've experienced.
  - kolev 12y ago
    I agree. A racist is somebody who can be judged by their actions. There are many people who sound like racists, but who haven't done anything and are completely incapable of discriminating anybody based on their race. Interestingly, xenophobia in Western Europe is a bigger problem than racism.
  - btilly 12y ago
    I don't believe that you should be downvoted. If you read Paul Graham's essay http://www.paulgraham.com/say.html http://www.paulgraham.com/say.html, it is clear that our current hypersensitivity to racism is a current moral fashion. You're not allowed to be racist, you're not allowed to think racist things, you're not even allowed to question our society's chosen approach to racism. Which is just silly. Facts remain facts even if we don't like them. And we can't honestly discuss certain facts without sounding racist. Here is a real example. "On average, blacks have lower IQs than whites." How careful do you have to be when saying this? Very, you could get into a lot of trouble. However this statement actually happens to be true, and repeatedly demonstrated in various places in various ways. With some bizarre consequences. For example the Supreme Court has ruled that it is illegal to make an IQ test be part of a job hiring practice because allowing it will discriminate against blacks. Don't believe me? Go read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griggs_v._Duke_Power_Co. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griggs_v._Duke_Power_Co.! But we can't even say facts like this in public. And if we can't say it, we can't start asking honest questions why it happens. And without asking them, we can't begin having honest conversations about what we can reasonably do to address the issue. Instead we're stuck at name calling and denial of reality. (And telling people who actually are racist that they can't talk about their racism doesn't actually reduce their racism - it just increases their resentment of the larger society, which ironically they are somewhat likely to take out on the group they are racist against!)
    - lomnakkus 12y ago
      I don't see how you could possibly see any commonality between what I said and your own comment.
    - vertex-four 12y ago
      > How careful do you have to be when saying this? The issue is that in saying that, you tend to be saying that black people intrinsically have lower intelligence than white people unless you're careful to be explicit about what you mean. As it is, that's not necessarily the case - there's a lot of disagreement over whether or not IQ tests are a correct measure of intelligence over more than one culture, for a start. The fact that IQ tests were decided to be illegal, follows the idea that you can't discriminate on factors that would affect certian subgroups without sufficient reason. For example, if you required that all employees wear no headgear, you'd be discriminating against Sikhs and Muslims. However, possibly you could require that if there were serious safety concerns. You couldn't require that all employees are OK with alcohol... unless, of course, their job actually involves alcohol. Nobody's job involves filling out IQ tests, or is directly relevant to anything on an IQ test, to IQ tests are not allowed.
  - researcher88 12y ago
    A lot of what's called racism is personal insults. People just look for things that describe their intended target and say them in derogatory ways. Of course, there's real racism on all sides, which are mostly negative assumptions about how you think one will act.
- daveloyall 12y ago
  I will now share some approximation conversation that I once witnessed or participated in, because I found it useful and maybe others will, too. > [Alice and Bob debate about whether Bob is racist. Bob suspects that he is slightly racist and is looking for confirm or deny this.] > Alice: Well, what do your black friends think about [that thing you are talking about]? > Bob: My what? > Alice: Happy to help.
emodendroket 12y ago
The Klan was also a product of its time and prevailing social mores, and yet no one would argue it was not racist.

He is not racist. As you said it His racism probably isn't his fault. It's probably a factor of his condition. Does not make him a racist.

by seivan 12y ago

He is not racist. As you said it His racism probably isn't his fault. It's probably a factor of his condition. Does not make him a racist.

67726e 12y ago

My parents raised me to be a racist. It's not my fault, it's my upbringing. Any attempts to otherwise convince me are just a conspiracy brought on both those pesky inferior races. Wanna play have a philosophical debate? Or can we agree that someone who espouses racist ideology is, in fact, a racist.

lomnakkus 12y ago
Wrong. People may say racist things without necessarily being racist. The difference between "being X-ist" and "saying X-ist thing" is basically predicated on having a "persistent belief that X" or having a "momentary belief that X". (I'm using "belief" in the philosophical sense.)
- 67726e 12y ago
  When you consistently espouse racist ideology, you're a racist. Or maybe a performance artist disguised as a Kazakh journalist, but most probably a racist. It could be that he just says these things all the time for the hell of it, or it could be that he believes what he says. I'll leave determining which is more likely as an exercise to the reader.
  - lomnakkus 12y ago
    I was mostly talking about a person who cannot actually realize that they're saying racist things (through impairment of their faculties), but I guess I kind of formulated that badly. I certainly didn't mean to be some sort of apologist. FWIW, I was thinking of this with my original comment: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbdxeFcQtaU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbdxeFcQtaU (... but I see that it doesn't necessarily apply in this context.)
  - seivan 12y ago
    It's this sorta wording that has watered down the word "racist" and "islamophobic". This is from a Kurd/Iranian with a muslim background living in Sweden. This thinking is also conventionally and conveniently used by white relativist liberals living in predominately white neighbourhoods. Not saying you are. It's just it's what I've experienced.
- kolev 12y ago
  I agree. A racist is somebody who can be judged by their actions. There are many people who sound like racists, but who haven't done anything and are completely incapable of discriminating anybody based on their race. Interestingly, xenophobia in Western Europe is a bigger problem than racism.
- btilly 12y ago
  I don't believe that you should be downvoted. If you read Paul Graham's essay http://www.paulgraham.com/say.html http://www.paulgraham.com/say.html, it is clear that our current hypersensitivity to racism is a current moral fashion. You're not allowed to be racist, you're not allowed to think racist things, you're not even allowed to question our society's chosen approach to racism. Which is just silly. Facts remain facts even if we don't like them. And we can't honestly discuss certain facts without sounding racist. Here is a real example. "On average, blacks have lower IQs than whites." How careful do you have to be when saying this? Very, you could get into a lot of trouble. However this statement actually happens to be true, and repeatedly demonstrated in various places in various ways. With some bizarre consequences. For example the Supreme Court has ruled that it is illegal to make an IQ test be part of a job hiring practice because allowing it will discriminate against blacks. Don't believe me? Go read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griggs_v._Duke_Power_Co. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griggs_v._Duke_Power_Co.! But we can't even say facts like this in public. And if we can't say it, we can't start asking honest questions why it happens. And without asking them, we can't begin having honest conversations about what we can reasonably do to address the issue. Instead we're stuck at name calling and denial of reality. (And telling people who actually are racist that they can't talk about their racism doesn't actually reduce their racism - it just increases their resentment of the larger society, which ironically they are somewhat likely to take out on the group they are racist against!)
  - lomnakkus 12y ago
    I don't see how you could possibly see any commonality between what I said and your own comment.
  - vertex-four 12y ago
    > How careful do you have to be when saying this? The issue is that in saying that, you tend to be saying that black people intrinsically have lower intelligence than white people unless you're careful to be explicit about what you mean. As it is, that's not necessarily the case - there's a lot of disagreement over whether or not IQ tests are a correct measure of intelligence over more than one culture, for a start. The fact that IQ tests were decided to be illegal, follows the idea that you can't discriminate on factors that would affect certian subgroups without sufficient reason. For example, if you required that all employees wear no headgear, you'd be discriminating against Sikhs and Muslims. However, possibly you could require that if there were serious safety concerns. You couldn't require that all employees are OK with alcohol... unless, of course, their job actually involves alcohol. Nobody's job involves filling out IQ tests, or is directly relevant to anything on an IQ test, to IQ tests are not allowed.
- researcher88 12y ago
  A lot of what's called racism is personal insults. People just look for things that describe their intended target and say them in derogatory ways. Of course, there's real racism on all sides, which are mostly negative assumptions about how you think one will act.
daveloyall 12y ago
I will now share some approximation conversation that I once witnessed or participated in, because I found it useful and maybe others will, too. > [Alice and Bob debate about whether Bob is racist. Bob suspects that he is slightly racist and is looking for confirm or deny this.] > Alice: Well, what do your black friends think about [that thing you are talking about]? > Bob: My what? > Alice: Happy to help.

emodendroket 12y ago

The Klan was also a product of its time and prevailing social mores, and yet no one would argue it was not racist.