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The citizens voted for national parliaments who appointed the EC, and support the EC.

by rmc 12y ago

MistahKoala 12y ago
Like I said: reductio ad absurdum.
Silhouette 12y ago
Or, if you live in the UK: 1. The citizens vote for a local Member of Parliament to be their representative (the winning MP actually being chosen via the statistically dubious First Past The Post system). 2. The party with the largest group of MPs probably forms the government (except when it doesn't, as with our current coalition administration). 3. The leader of the winning party becomes Prime Minister (except when that leader changes after the election, even if there was an explicit promise before the election that this wasn't what people would be voting for, as with Gordon Brown in the previous administration). 4. The senior executive roles within the government and indirect representatives such as European Commissioners are effectively appointed by the PM and their possibly entirely unelected political advisors. The idea that European Commissioners have any meaningful electoral accountability at all is crazy. If you don't think so, try this simple test: When our citizens cast their only relevant vote on this matter at the last election in their constituency, was it even possible for them to know the name of the person who would ultimately become the European Commissioner for our country?
- rmc 12y ago
  > except when it doesn't, as with our current coalition administration More than 50% of MPs have voted for the current UK Government. Yes, they aren't all in the same party. Many countries have coalition governments, and we have no problem with them. A minority government sounds very undemocratic
  - Silhouette 12y ago
    More than 50% of MPs have voted for the current UK Government. Right. But that means there is already an average of averages problem, even leaving aside the well documented criticisms of how those MPs are themselves elected. And literally everything beyond that is a matter of political dealing, not representative democracy, so the idea that there is any meaningful democratic accountability at all for the European Commission is still silly.
    - rmc 12y ago
      By that logic the UK isn't democratic. Is any country democratic?
      - Silhouette 12y ago
        No, the UK isn't really very democratic in a literal sense, and nor is anywhere else. That isn't really the point, though, because as far as I know, no-one here is claiming that pure democracy is somehow the idealised form of government. The point was merely that the European Commission doesn't have much of a democratic mandate to impose these kinds of burdens on everyone. In any case, we're drifting well off the original topic now and I'm not sure this discussion is going anywhere constructive, so I'm going to stop there.

The citizens voted for national parliaments who appointed the EC, and support the EC.

by rmc 12y ago

The citizens voted for national parliaments who appointed the EC, and support the EC.

MistahKoala 12y ago

Like I said: reductio ad absurdum.

Silhouette 12y ago

Or, if you live in the UK: 1. The citizens vote for a local Member of Parliament to be their representative (the winning MP actually being chosen via the statistically dubious First Past The Post system). 2. The party with the largest group of MPs probably forms the government (except when it doesn't, as with our current coalition administration). 3. The leader of the winning party becomes Prime Minister (except when that leader changes after the election, even if there was an explicit promise before the election that this wasn't what people would be voting for, as with Gordon Brown in the previous administration). 4. The senior executive roles within the government and indirect representatives such as European Commissioners are effectively appointed by the PM and their possibly entirely unelected political advisors. The idea that European Commissioners have any meaningful electoral accountability at all is crazy. If you don't think so, try this simple test: When our citizens cast their only relevant vote on this matter at the last election in their constituency, was it even possible for them to know the name of the person who would ultimately become the European Commissioner for our country?

rmc 12y ago
> except when it doesn't, as with our current coalition administration More than 50% of MPs have voted for the current UK Government. Yes, they aren't all in the same party. Many countries have coalition governments, and we have no problem with them. A minority government sounds very undemocratic
- Silhouette 12y ago
  More than 50% of MPs have voted for the current UK Government. Right. But that means there is already an average of averages problem, even leaving aside the well documented criticisms of how those MPs are themselves elected. And literally everything beyond that is a matter of political dealing, not representative democracy, so the idea that there is any meaningful democratic accountability at all for the European Commission is still silly.
  - rmc 12y ago
    By that logic the UK isn't democratic. Is any country democratic?
    - Silhouette 12y ago
      No, the UK isn't really very democratic in a literal sense, and nor is anywhere else. That isn't really the point, though, because as far as I know, no-one here is claiming that pure democracy is somehow the idealised form of government. The point was merely that the European Commission doesn't have much of a democratic mandate to impose these kinds of burdens on everyone. In any case, we're drifting well off the original topic now and I'm not sure this discussion is going anywhere constructive, so I'm going to stop there.