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This whole thing is nuts. Please see http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=857922 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=857922 Also, Einstein on exams: http://news

This whole thing is nuts. Please see http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=857922 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=857922 Also, Einstein on exams: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=864539 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=864539

chrischen 17y ago
I agree the idea of making yourself perform better for a test is ludicrous. These are performance enhancers for something that doesn't matter. If you are self-motivated and driven like Einstein, or like a startup founder, you will have the motivation and focus that Adderal provides. Rather than taking drugs to make ourselves fit into an unideal model of education, why not just modify the education system so that students learn what they want? Yea it would be a major overhaul, but we're going in the wrong direction here.
- pyre 17y ago
  The problem here is that there is a chasm between the students that want to learn, and the students that see learning as a chore, and just 'want to have fun' because 'learning/reading is for nerds.' Just allowing students to learn what they want to, won't necessarily change the 'poor' culture that discourages learning (e.g. poor, racist blacks that view learning as a 'white thing' or just poor people that view people that want to learn or are 'smart' as pretentious).
  - chrischen 17y ago
    Personally I think everyone wants to learn something, because we all have some sort of desire which needs some new knowledge to be had in order to be achieved. The problem is that our current educational system tells students to learn something usually at an unoptimal time. What I mean is that if I am I taught algebra when I realize I want to learn it, and I do it myself, there is less time wasted in being forced to learn it.
    - pyre 17y ago
      While I think that there are definitely problems with the US education system, I think that if we leave everything up to the children it'll be worse off. There will be some that are freed to excel to higher heights, but -- taking from your example -- there will be far fewer people with even a basic understanding of algebra. While it might not exactly be Lord of the Flies, children aren't known for making the best decisions for themselves nor for having a level of resistance to peer-pressure.
      - chrischen 17y ago
        You're right. Most kids would probably know jack squat if it were up to them. I think I was just thinking a little too much about myself because I felt jailed in by education. But on the other hand even though we force those kids to learn algebra who might not have learned it if it was up to them, how much do they really understand of it when they are initially taught? Do they only truly learn it when they rediscover it later on in life (perhaps at a more natural moment when it becomes practical) only to have the educational system take credit? I mean even in college some of my friends take the attitude of pass now and learn the stuff for real when they get their jobs later in life. I'm thinking we could improve efficiency by somehow bypassing the pass now stage. Of course it's much more complicated to do that than it seems. Instead of focusing on cramming info to give the illusion of education, we could teach children why they should learn, and try to get them interested and self motivated.
        johnnybgoode 17y ago
        You are on the right track, chrischen. Many of us seem to have made the hidden assumption that we are first supposed to have a two-decade-long "education" phase, and only then a "real world" phase. I'll bet even the not-so-bright kids can tell that the tasks they're ordered to complete while in the child processing system[1] are artificial, arbitrary, inefficient, and often useless. Quite a few people have admitted that bright kids would probably be better off outside the system, but I believe this applies even to the less intelligent kids. You're more likely to encourage yourself to learn if you enjoy what you're learning and/or you see that it really matters in some way; i.e., it has some real-world effect beyond some grade on a test. Things work out better in many, many ways when people of all levels of intelligence are allowed to learn and work as they wish. [1] Credit for this term goes to HN poster gruseom; I believe he coined it.

chrischen 17y ago

I agree the idea of making yourself perform better for a test is ludicrous. These are performance enhancers for something that doesn't matter. If you are self-motivated and driven like Einstein, or like a startup founder, you will have the motivation and focus that Adderal provides. Rather than taking drugs to make ourselves fit into an unideal model of education, why not just modify the education system so that students learn what they want? Yea it would be a major overhaul, but we're going in the wrong direction here.

pyre 17y ago
The problem here is that there is a chasm between the students that want to learn, and the students that see learning as a chore, and just 'want to have fun' because 'learning/reading is for nerds.' Just allowing students to learn what they want to, won't necessarily change the 'poor' culture that discourages learning (e.g. poor, racist blacks that view learning as a 'white thing' or just poor people that view people that want to learn or are 'smart' as pretentious).
- chrischen 17y ago
  Personally I think everyone wants to learn something, because we all have some sort of desire which needs some new knowledge to be had in order to be achieved. The problem is that our current educational system tells students to learn something usually at an unoptimal time. What I mean is that if I am I taught algebra when I realize I want to learn it, and I do it myself, there is less time wasted in being forced to learn it.
  - pyre 17y ago
    While I think that there are definitely problems with the US education system, I think that if we leave everything up to the children it'll be worse off. There will be some that are freed to excel to higher heights, but -- taking from your example -- there will be far fewer people with even a basic understanding of algebra. While it might not exactly be Lord of the Flies, children aren't known for making the best decisions for themselves nor for having a level of resistance to peer-pressure.
    - chrischen 17y ago
      You're right. Most kids would probably know jack squat if it were up to them. I think I was just thinking a little too much about myself because I felt jailed in by education. But on the other hand even though we force those kids to learn algebra who might not have learned it if it was up to them, how much do they really understand of it when they are initially taught? Do they only truly learn it when they rediscover it later on in life (perhaps at a more natural moment when it becomes practical) only to have the educational system take credit? I mean even in college some of my friends take the attitude of pass now and learn the stuff for real when they get their jobs later in life. I'm thinking we could improve efficiency by somehow bypassing the pass now stage. Of course it's much more complicated to do that than it seems. Instead of focusing on cramming info to give the illusion of education, we could teach children why they should learn, and try to get them interested and self motivated.
      - johnnybgoode 17y ago
        You are on the right track, chrischen. Many of us seem to have made the hidden assumption that we are first supposed to have a two-decade-long "education" phase, and only then a "real world" phase. I'll bet even the not-so-bright kids can tell that the tasks they're ordered to complete while in the child processing system[1] are artificial, arbitrary, inefficient, and often useless. Quite a few people have admitted that bright kids would probably be better off outside the system, but I believe this applies even to the less intelligent kids. You're more likely to encourage yourself to learn if you enjoy what you're learning and/or you see that it really matters in some way; i.e., it has some real-world effect beyond some grade on a test. Things work out better in many, many ways when people of all levels of intelligence are allowed to learn and work as they wish. [1] Credit for this term goes to HN poster gruseom; I believe he coined it.