5 ms·

Eolas sues Apple, Google

41 points by abraham 17y ago

noonespecial 17y ago
"Feeding the trolls" in real life sure does make a mess of things...
ujjwalg 17y ago
USPTO reversed the position and upheld the patent 3 times. I cannot believe this. This seems to be in the same line as podcast patent, URL suggestion patent, registration key patent. The eligibility criterion for being a patent examiner/judge needs to be revisited.
- jacquesm 17y ago
  You mean, as in more than 'has a pulse' ? This lawsuit was one of the few times that Microsoft must have thought that maybe those software patents aren't such a good idea after all. If there is going to be reform you can bet that they'll just try to get rid of the trolls, but they'll try to keep the practice as much as they can to benefit from it. What we really need is a total ban on software patents. And another one on living organisms.
- jhancock 17y ago
  The reason so many patents are issued isn't, for the most part, due to dumb examiners and judges. Its part of a political/economic agenda to enrich U.S. interests in global free market warfare. As other markets grow and adopt technology, they are beholden to IP owners, which are lead by the U.S. Or so the thinking goes. It turns out, there are lots of problems with this strategy. But there it is, the U.S. wants to rubber stamp as many patents are they can before China, India, Japan can.
  - netsp 17y ago
    That makes sense. Elaboration? Proof?
  - hristov 17y ago
    There is one problem with this theory and it is that the US only issues patents that are valid for the US. China issues patents for China, Japan for Japan, etc. Thus, the Chinese are not really beholden to American IP owners in their own country unless they give those American IP owners Chinese patents. So I am not sure how the US will benefit from issuing more patents. (disclosure -- I am a real life patent attorney but nothing I write on hn is legal advice).
    - frig 17y ago
      Question for you: I am a Chinese manufacturer of some product whose manufacture would in the USA require some patent licenses. If I would like to export my product for sale in the USA, is it the case that: - (1) patents, schmatents! It's not under patent in China, so I can export to USA whilst scoffing at the USA patents? - (2) if not necessarily me then someone in the distribution chain will have to obtain proper patent licenses before putting the goods up for sale in the USA You're a real life patent attorney so you should know this.
      - hristov 17y ago
        Yes, I do know the answer to that but I am not sure how it goes along with the theory of US global dominance trough patents. If a US company wants to export something to China it needs a Chinese patent. US companies can get patents in China and Chinese companies can get them in the US. So I am not sure how a supposedly easy patent system in the US translates to plans for global dominance. It could be argued that an easy patent system can be used for protectionism (i.e., like hidden tariffs) but I am not sure I buy this either because the US patent systems should be just as accessible to foreign companies as US ones. I think the US is generally pro-patent and pro-IP because we know that one of the few areas we hold some kind of competitive advantage is in RD, design, arts, etc. We have to keep our hands on these intangible goods because if it comes down to making things we are really, really behind.
        frig 17y ago
        You're being cute. There's this: There is one problem with this theory and it is that the US only issues patents that are valid for the US. China issues patents for China, Japan for Japan, etc. Thus, the Chinese are not really beholden to American IP owners in their own country unless they give those American IP owners Chinese patents. ...but then you say this: I think the US is generally pro-patent and pro-IP because we know that one of the few areas we hold some kind of competitive advantage is in RD, design, arts, etc. We have to keep our hands on these intangible goods because if it comes down to making things we are really, really behind. ...which is cute in that the more you espouse to the outlook implied in the first quote the less the opinion in the second quote makes sense: how would being pro-patent and pro-IP help our competitive advantage with other countries unless there were were some mechanisms by which domestic IP influenced foreign operations? You've also basically backed your way into the smart version of the theory in question: - the USA currently has few strong competitive advantages short of producing IP - the USA is thus pro-IP (domestically + in its international negotiations) as a way of preserving or strengthening its global position vis-a-vis its trading partners ...which makes it unclear what we're arguing about. As I've heard the argument (and it's been around since the 90s) the argument comes in two versions (the 'lite' and the 'sinister' versions). The 'lite' version is a balance-of-payments issue: since we're offshoring actually making stuff we will have a substantial trade deficit; having a lot of obligatory patent licenses can mitigate the imbalance. EG: - (low-patents): original manufacturer builds dvd player with about $20 in parts and labor and sells it to an import/export type for $25 and then best buy gets it @ $45/unit in bulk and it sells for $70 or so; so ~$45/unit is flowing out of the country - (high-patents): same as before, but now obligatory patent licenses tack on another $5-10 or so per unit; as the people espousing the theory would have it the effect is less net money runs it (they don't get into trying to calculate which parts of the chain have more negotiating ability, and stick with 'less' rather than make more precise estimates) It's not enough to neutralize a trade deficit but it can knock it down substantially; key to the strategy succeeding is legislative support that helps promote sufficient patent coverage in as many product categories as possible, then letting the market sort out which actually get licensed and for how much. The issue of patents to foreign holders -- whether USA patents or overseas -- is essentially moot from the balance-of-payments outlook: they mainly impact the internal distribution of money sent to the trading partner but don't have a substantial effect on the total amount sent over. The 'sinister' version takes the above and throws in some assumption as to how you produce patent-worthy R+D and so forth. Basically it assumes you can't jump to the forefront of technology immediately (reasonable) and thus even though the USA patent system is equal opportunity in some sense as a practical matter there aren't going to be Chinese-originated patents worth licensing anytime soon; as a large chunk of industrial r+d is funded out of retained earnings the reduced earnings under the high-patent regime (reduced b/c they've been "taxed away" via licensing fees) will retard the technological progress of your trading partners; this lets you keep the upper hand for longer, even if they will close the gap eventually.
  - keeptrying 17y ago
    Each country has it's own patent rules. In India all American pharmaceutical patents are void. This is so that we can make cheaper variants which our population cam afford.
jacquesm 17y ago
That's why you shouldn't be able to patent ideas, which is all that software patents really are. For everything else we have copyright law.
volida 17y ago
Hopefully this time, someone will stop this madness. How can someone patent something so abstract? And embeddable objects (OLE 1.0 anyone?!) have been in existence since 1990. How come it defers if they were embedded through an interpreted or a compiled application? Visual Basic was interpreted anyhow long before JavaScript or ActionScript.
- robryan 17y ago
  Very dumb patent to give, Maybe at the time this was a fairly unique idea, but now it's common place for many many websites. Hopefully taking action against so many companies will indicate to the courts how broad and obvious this idea they have patented is.
  - scotty79 17y ago
    > Maybe at the time this was a fairly unique idea, but now it's common place for many many websites. It would not be if Eolas could help it!
  - volida 17y ago
    Funny because of what I remember Java applets were running inside the browser in 1995.
kiba 17y ago
I wonder why the "abolishment of patent" meme has not spread yet. Could it simply be that people have not heard of this book: http://www.dklevine.com/general/intellectual/againstfinal.htm http://www.dklevine.com/general/intellectual/againstfinal.ht... I have seen the anti-patent sentinment spread very widely in libertarians circle enough so that major libertarian think-tanks like the Ludwig von Mises insitute publishes quite a few anti-patent and anti-copyright articles.
jister 17y ago
it's not about patent. it's about easy money. imagine if Eolas can make at least 200M for each company they mentioned
pmorici 17y ago
""All we want is what’s fair," Eolas chairman Michael Doyle added." Ironic.
brianobush 17y ago
Patents are a double edged sword: I see the business case and am told to patent whatever I can find, but then I see cases like this and I shudder at what we have done to our abilities to share and collectively gain from our ideas.
bayareaguy 17y ago
It's crazy that Pei Wei's original Viola Tcl/Tk web browser[1] wasn't good enough prior art for the USPTO. 1- http://www.xcf.berkeley.edu/~wei/viola/aboutEolasMicrosoft.html http://www.xcf.berkeley.edu/~wei/viola/aboutEolasMicrosoft.h...
andybak 17y ago
With the Bilski case still hovering around the upper echelons of the judicial system, now would be an excellent time for someone with deep pockets to take on Software Patents in general. Please let this be the straw that breaks the camels back.

41 points by abraham 17y ago

"Feeding the trolls" in real life sure does make a mess of things...

USPTO reversed the position and upheld the patent 3 times. I cannot believe this. This seems to be in the same line as podcast patent, URL suggestion patent, registration key patent. The eligibility criterion for being a patent examiner/judge needs to be revisited.

jacquesm 17y ago
You mean, as in more than 'has a pulse' ? This lawsuit was one of the few times that Microsoft must have thought that maybe those software patents aren't such a good idea after all. If there is going to be reform you can bet that they'll just try to get rid of the trolls, but they'll try to keep the practice as much as they can to benefit from it. What we really need is a total ban on software patents. And another one on living organisms.
jhancock 17y ago
The reason so many patents are issued isn't, for the most part, due to dumb examiners and judges. Its part of a political/economic agenda to enrich U.S. interests in global free market warfare. As other markets grow and adopt technology, they are beholden to IP owners, which are lead by the U.S. Or so the thinking goes. It turns out, there are lots of problems with this strategy. But there it is, the U.S. wants to rubber stamp as many patents are they can before China, India, Japan can.
- netsp 17y ago
  That makes sense. Elaboration? Proof?
- hristov 17y ago
  There is one problem with this theory and it is that the US only issues patents that are valid for the US. China issues patents for China, Japan for Japan, etc. Thus, the Chinese are not really beholden to American IP owners in their own country unless they give those American IP owners Chinese patents. So I am not sure how the US will benefit from issuing more patents. (disclosure -- I am a real life patent attorney but nothing I write on hn is legal advice).
  - frig 17y ago
    Question for you: I am a Chinese manufacturer of some product whose manufacture would in the USA require some patent licenses. If I would like to export my product for sale in the USA, is it the case that: - (1) patents, schmatents! It's not under patent in China, so I can export to USA whilst scoffing at the USA patents? - (2) if not necessarily me then someone in the distribution chain will have to obtain proper patent licenses before putting the goods up for sale in the USA You're a real life patent attorney so you should know this.
    - hristov 17y ago
      Yes, I do know the answer to that but I am not sure how it goes along with the theory of US global dominance trough patents. If a US company wants to export something to China it needs a Chinese patent. US companies can get patents in China and Chinese companies can get them in the US. So I am not sure how a supposedly easy patent system in the US translates to plans for global dominance. It could be argued that an easy patent system can be used for protectionism (i.e., like hidden tariffs) but I am not sure I buy this either because the US patent systems should be just as accessible to foreign companies as US ones. I think the US is generally pro-patent and pro-IP because we know that one of the few areas we hold some kind of competitive advantage is in RD, design, arts, etc. We have to keep our hands on these intangible goods because if it comes down to making things we are really, really behind.
      - frig 17y ago
        You're being cute. There's this: There is one problem with this theory and it is that the US only issues patents that are valid for the US. China issues patents for China, Japan for Japan, etc. Thus, the Chinese are not really beholden to American IP owners in their own country unless they give those American IP owners Chinese patents. ...but then you say this: I think the US is generally pro-patent and pro-IP because we know that one of the few areas we hold some kind of competitive advantage is in RD, design, arts, etc. We have to keep our hands on these intangible goods because if it comes down to making things we are really, really behind. ...which is cute in that the more you espouse to the outlook implied in the first quote the less the opinion in the second quote makes sense: how would being pro-patent and pro-IP help our competitive advantage with other countries unless there were were some mechanisms by which domestic IP influenced foreign operations? You've also basically backed your way into the smart version of the theory in question: - the USA currently has few strong competitive advantages short of producing IP - the USA is thus pro-IP (domestically + in its international negotiations) as a way of preserving or strengthening its global position vis-a-vis its trading partners ...which makes it unclear what we're arguing about. As I've heard the argument (and it's been around since the 90s) the argument comes in two versions (the 'lite' and the 'sinister' versions). The 'lite' version is a balance-of-payments issue: since we're offshoring actually making stuff we will have a substantial trade deficit; having a lot of obligatory patent licenses can mitigate the imbalance. EG: - (low-patents): original manufacturer builds dvd player with about $20 in parts and labor and sells it to an import/export type for $25 and then best buy gets it @ $45/unit in bulk and it sells for $70 or so; so ~$45/unit is flowing out of the country - (high-patents): same as before, but now obligatory patent licenses tack on another $5-10 or so per unit; as the people espousing the theory would have it the effect is less net money runs it (they don't get into trying to calculate which parts of the chain have more negotiating ability, and stick with 'less' rather than make more precise estimates) It's not enough to neutralize a trade deficit but it can knock it down substantially; key to the strategy succeeding is legislative support that helps promote sufficient patent coverage in as many product categories as possible, then letting the market sort out which actually get licensed and for how much. The issue of patents to foreign holders -- whether USA patents or overseas -- is essentially moot from the balance-of-payments outlook: they mainly impact the internal distribution of money sent to the trading partner but don't have a substantial effect on the total amount sent over. The 'sinister' version takes the above and throws in some assumption as to how you produce patent-worthy R+D and so forth. Basically it assumes you can't jump to the forefront of technology immediately (reasonable) and thus even though the USA patent system is equal opportunity in some sense as a practical matter there aren't going to be Chinese-originated patents worth licensing anytime soon; as a large chunk of industrial r+d is funded out of retained earnings the reduced earnings under the high-patent regime (reduced b/c they've been "taxed away" via licensing fees) will retard the technological progress of your trading partners; this lets you keep the upper hand for longer, even if they will close the gap eventually.
- keeptrying 17y ago
  Each country has it's own patent rules. In India all American pharmaceutical patents are void. This is so that we can make cheaper variants which our population cam afford.

jacquesm 17y ago

That's why you shouldn't be able to patent ideas, which is all that software patents really are. For everything else we have copyright law.

volida 17y ago

Hopefully this time, someone will stop this madness. How can someone patent something so abstract? And embeddable objects (OLE 1.0 anyone?!) have been in existence since 1990. How come it defers if they were embedded through an interpreted or a compiled application? Visual Basic was interpreted anyhow long before JavaScript or ActionScript.

robryan 17y ago
Very dumb patent to give, Maybe at the time this was a fairly unique idea, but now it's common place for many many websites. Hopefully taking action against so many companies will indicate to the courts how broad and obvious this idea they have patented is.
- scotty79 17y ago
  > Maybe at the time this was a fairly unique idea, but now it's common place for many many websites. It would not be if Eolas could help it!
- volida 17y ago
  Funny because of what I remember Java applets were running inside the browser in 1995.

kiba 17y ago

I wonder why the "abolishment of patent" meme has not spread yet. Could it simply be that people have not heard of this book: http://www.dklevine.com/general/intellectual/againstfinal.htm http://www.dklevine.com/general/intellectual/againstfinal.ht... I have seen the anti-patent sentinment spread very widely in libertarians circle enough so that major libertarian think-tanks like the Ludwig von Mises insitute publishes quite a few anti-patent and anti-copyright articles.

jister 17y ago

it's not about patent. it's about easy money. imagine if Eolas can make at least 200M for each company they mentioned

pmorici 17y ago

""All we want is what’s fair," Eolas chairman Michael Doyle added." Ironic.

brianobush 17y ago

Patents are a double edged sword: I see the business case and am told to patent whatever I can find, but then I see cases like this and I shudder at what we have done to our abilities to share and collectively gain from our ideas.

bayareaguy 17y ago

It's crazy that Pei Wei's original Viola Tcl/Tk web browser[1] wasn't good enough prior art for the USPTO. 1- http://www.xcf.berkeley.edu/~wei/viola/aboutEolasMicrosoft.html http://www.xcf.berkeley.edu/~wei/viola/aboutEolasMicrosoft.h...

andybak 17y ago

With the Bilski case still hovering around the upper echelons of the judicial system, now would be an excellent time for someone with deep pockets to take on Software Patents in general. Please let this be the straw that breaks the camels back.