Exactly. But see my post above about predator/prey ratios. And this gets to the other point, I'd argue that if a player (not character) only finds a game fun i

Exactly. But see my post above about predator/prey ratios. And this gets to the other point, I'd argue that if a player (not character) only finds a game fun if there are 'victims' to exploit that they are in fact the problem. IMO a true fan of such things would enjoy the 'hardcore players who enjoy this brutal setting', but we've seen time and time again that these games fail because the majority of people who say they want these games really just want to be at the top of the food chain. Random side note: The 'care bear' term erupted on the CoB board. The LS roleplayers tended to be very PvP heavy. The Chessie roleplayers were generally PvP averse. We called them care bears and they called us the biker gang. This lead to things like them making throwaway chars on LS to give us a "care bear invasion" at Silks, us making chars over there for impromptu events (some involving Koster himself), etc.