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I respectfully disagree with this advice. But I don't have any evidence, anecdotal or otherwise, to back up my opinion. Have you (or anyone else here) had dire

by nathanb 12y ago

I respectfully disagree with this advice. But I don't have any evidence, anecdotal or otherwise, to back up my opinion. Have you (or anyone else here) had direct experience in this area? Anyone had a job offer rescinded because you refused to sign the contract as-is? Anyone successfully tried to negotiate a non-compete? When I went to my first job out of college, I was somewhat disturbed by the somewhat vague NCA that was part of the contract. I felt like its vagueness (it did not define what a "competitor" was) worked in my favor, and its duration was just a year. I talked with the HR person who said "oh, we don't really enforce those unless you're at the executive level anyway", and by observation this appears to be true. We even had an executive VP leave to be CEO of a startup which has become a direct competitor, and if there was legal action involved they kept it quiet, since by all accounts he left on good terms. Sorry for the rambling and possibly unhelpful story, but tl;dr is that I feel like "don't sign it" is not good advice.

altcognito 12y ago
If they aren't going to enforce it, then you should gleefully say, "Great! No need to sign it then."
Dewie 12y ago
> "oh, we don't really enforce those unless you're at the executive level anyway" They don't trust that you won't 'stab them in the back' - sign a written agreement. You feel queasy about how it might limit your career if you have to quit/are fired - "Oh just take our word for it that we won't actually use it against you". Yes, totally symmetrical and fair. /s
lotsofmangos 12y ago
You are giving out appalling advice. Do not sign things that you do not wish to abide by, no matter what HR says about it being a standard thing that is unlikely to be enforced. If you do not agree with something in a contract you should always cross it off the contract and have the amendment countersigned by the other party. Employment contracts are between two parties, they are not one party dictating terms to another and any employer who thinks they are is not worth giving your time to anyway.
- greenyoda 12y ago
  And speaking of HR, it's good to always remember: HR works for the company's management, not for the employees. They routinely do things that are not in employees' best interests.
xordon 12y ago
I didn't sign one. I escalated it through management, HR, executives, all the way to the parent company's chief legal officer. Every person told me the same things "It isn't enforceable" or "It's only for executives not for regular engineers". My usual response was, if it isn't enforceable or applicable to me then I won't sign it. The end result was that I ended up on a temporary contract until it got sorted (~6 months), and now the standard employment contract no longer includes a non-compete clause. If the company wants to hire you, they will negotiate. If it is a nonsense clause and everyone knows it is nonsense they have no reason to not change it.

by nathanb 12y ago

altcognito 12y ago

If they aren't going to enforce it, then you should gleefully say, "Great! No need to sign it then."

Dewie 12y ago

> "oh, we don't really enforce those unless you're at the executive level anyway" They don't trust that you won't 'stab them in the back' - sign a written agreement. You feel queasy about how it might limit your career if you have to quit/are fired - "Oh just take our word for it that we won't actually use it against you". Yes, totally symmetrical and fair. /s

lotsofmangos 12y ago

You are giving out appalling advice. Do not sign things that you do not wish to abide by, no matter what HR says about it being a standard thing that is unlikely to be enforced. If you do not agree with something in a contract you should always cross it off the contract and have the amendment countersigned by the other party. Employment contracts are between two parties, they are not one party dictating terms to another and any employer who thinks they are is not worth giving your time to anyway.

greenyoda 12y ago
And speaking of HR, it's good to always remember: HR works for the company's management, not for the employees. They routinely do things that are not in employees' best interests.

xordon 12y ago

I didn't sign one. I escalated it through management, HR, executives, all the way to the parent company's chief legal officer. Every person told me the same things "It isn't enforceable" or "It's only for executives not for regular engineers". My usual response was, if it isn't enforceable or applicable to me then I won't sign it. The end result was that I ended up on a temporary contract until it got sorted (~6 months), and now the standard employment contract no longer includes a non-compete clause. If the company wants to hire you, they will negotiate. If it is a nonsense clause and everyone knows it is nonsense they have no reason to not change it.