3 ms·

the only reason I'm re-interested in bsd is that it does not have systemd, if BSD wants systemd-alike init I will stop right here... additionally, for the vast

by ausjke 12y ago

the only reason I'm re-interested in bsd is that it does not have systemd, if BSD wants systemd-alike init I will stop right here... additionally, for the vast majority linux systems that are actually embedded, BSD needs a solution for that.

gpvos 12y ago
OpenBSD does not seem to have any interest in systemd-lookalikes.
ghshephard 12y ago
The one great thing about OpenBSD, is that it provides a consistent, reliable, cleanly documented, constantly maintained, operating system. There is such an emphasis on consistency, that a solid OpenBSD administrator, who last worked on OpenBSD in 2004, and then, 20 versions later, (OpenBSD releases a new major version, along with a full set of architecture releases and binary packages every six months, like clockwork) - would have zero problem understanding all of the system concepts. A few things have changed/updated/evolved, but a couple hours with the man pages would bring them right up to date. OpenBSD is about very gradual evolution, not revolution. My sense is that OpenBSD is not designed for Watches, Tablets, or SmartPhones. It is a world class Server, Firewall, Router, networking device, networking appliance operating system, and it's unlikely to ever lose that focus. I'm pretty confident that we won't see anything like systemd confusing everyone on OpenBSD as long as Theo continues his steady management at the helm. Systemd actually serves some pretty important functions on systems that have a lot of dynamic services going up and down with dependencies, particularly on low-power devices, and on systems that require rapid parallel process initiation - so I'm not hating on systemd here, just appreciating the consistency that we find in OpenBSD.
- clarry 12y ago
  > OpenBSD is about very gradual evolution, not revolution. To make a concrete example, look at ifconfig and ip (from iproute2 I guess?) on Linux. ifconfig was used to be the one tool to rule them all, everybody knew it, everybody used it. At some point somebody decided they need a new tool, so now there are two, and the other is said to be deprecated. The fun thing is that ifconfig still mostly works, and you find lots of documentation/tutorials/wikis telling you to use it. But at some point you might bump into some really weird issue which turns out to be because the tool you're using is.. well, deprecated. I did have such a problem myself (related to IPv6, years ago) and it wasn't much fun, because the tool looked like it's got support for the thing I was trying to do, but it would just silently and weirdly fail... In the OpenBSD land, a network interface is a network interface. You use ifconfig. IPv6 or not. Wireless or not. The same tool everybody knew has been evolved to support the new stuff. The developers are careful about needlessly changing the user facing part of a tool in a way that would require him to re-learn it or another tool. Of course, sometimes changes are inevitable, and these changes are usually documented in the upgrade guide (and the page which documents changes to the -current branch). So there are few surprises. Sometimes the underlying tool might change entirely to another implementation, yet the user facing parts are made for most part finger-compatible with the old tool. For example, mandoc(1) has replaced historical tools like man(1), apropos(1), etc. And sendmail has been replaced by smtpd, but smtpd still provides newaliases and makemap. So they don't push shiny new poorly tested tools and tell everyone to relearn everything all the time because shiny new features (and the old tool was cranky and nobody wanted to fix it).
  - emmelaich 12y ago
    ifconfig didn't support infiniband and hadn't been maintained for many years. It was irritating at first but ip is a better, more capable tool. http://serverfault.com/questions/458628/should-i-quit-using-ifconfig http://serverfault.com/questions/458628/should-i-quit-using-...
    - ghshephard 12y ago
      I've never used "ip" in a sysadmin setting - the only command I've ever used on a nix (bsd, OS X, Solars, Linux) is ifconfig - which may just indicate I'm using the wrong command, but also demonstrates the issues involved in switching to a new command. Re- ifconfig/infiniband - this is ironic - because when I google "configure infiniband linux" - every page I come up with only mentions ifconfig, and never ip. (though, ifconfig is just used to display the interfaces, and it's usually other commands like ib that seem to be used to configure the infiniband interfaces)
- hhw 12y ago
  There's been a bit of revolution in OpenBSD as well, just smaller ones. OpenSSH, PF, and now LibreSSL were all fairly rapidly developed at inception due to issues with the original projects they replaced. They made it into the base system within 1 or 2 releases (every 6 months in OpenBSD), so there's no reticence to change or rapid development. However, they did take care to limit the projects to a well understood, readily achievable scope thus allowing them to ship on time (what a novel concept in software development!). OpenBSD also pioneered some major concepts in modern OS design such as privilege separation which has since been adopted by most other comparable operating systems. Yes, they do an excellent job of maintaining consistency, but a lot of that has to do with good design and careful choices, and not because they've avoided change.
  - dredmorbius 12y ago
    OpenBSD has a remarkable history of identifying key and crucial elements and providing replacements on its own where necessary. It's also working on a set of Systemd shims as a replacement for systemd: http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTc4MjQ http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTc4MjQ
justincormack 12y ago
NetBSD is your traditional BSD for embedding. With nothing like systemd... give it a try.

by ausjke 12y ago

gpvos 12y ago

OpenBSD does not seem to have any interest in systemd-lookalikes.

ghshephard 12y ago

The one great thing about OpenBSD, is that it provides a consistent, reliable, cleanly documented, constantly maintained, operating system. There is such an emphasis on consistency, that a solid OpenBSD administrator, who last worked on OpenBSD in 2004, and then, 20 versions later, (OpenBSD releases a new major version, along with a full set of architecture releases and binary packages every six months, like clockwork) - would have zero problem understanding all of the system concepts. A few things have changed/updated/evolved, but a couple hours with the man pages would bring them right up to date. OpenBSD is about very gradual evolution, not revolution. My sense is that OpenBSD is not designed for Watches, Tablets, or SmartPhones. It is a world class Server, Firewall, Router, networking device, networking appliance operating system, and it's unlikely to ever lose that focus. I'm pretty confident that we won't see anything like systemd confusing everyone on OpenBSD as long as Theo continues his steady management at the helm. Systemd actually serves some pretty important functions on systems that have a lot of dynamic services going up and down with dependencies, particularly on low-power devices, and on systems that require rapid parallel process initiation - so I'm not hating on systemd here, just appreciating the consistency that we find in OpenBSD.

clarry 12y ago
> OpenBSD is about very gradual evolution, not revolution. To make a concrete example, look at ifconfig and ip (from iproute2 I guess?) on Linux. ifconfig was used to be the one tool to rule them all, everybody knew it, everybody used it. At some point somebody decided they need a new tool, so now there are two, and the other is said to be deprecated. The fun thing is that ifconfig still mostly works, and you find lots of documentation/tutorials/wikis telling you to use it. But at some point you might bump into some really weird issue which turns out to be because the tool you're using is.. well, deprecated. I did have such a problem myself (related to IPv6, years ago) and it wasn't much fun, because the tool looked like it's got support for the thing I was trying to do, but it would just silently and weirdly fail... In the OpenBSD land, a network interface is a network interface. You use ifconfig. IPv6 or not. Wireless or not. The same tool everybody knew has been evolved to support the new stuff. The developers are careful about needlessly changing the user facing part of a tool in a way that would require him to re-learn it or another tool. Of course, sometimes changes are inevitable, and these changes are usually documented in the upgrade guide (and the page which documents changes to the -current branch). So there are few surprises. Sometimes the underlying tool might change entirely to another implementation, yet the user facing parts are made for most part finger-compatible with the old tool. For example, mandoc(1) has replaced historical tools like man(1), apropos(1), etc. And sendmail has been replaced by smtpd, but smtpd still provides newaliases and makemap. So they don't push shiny new poorly tested tools and tell everyone to relearn everything all the time because shiny new features (and the old tool was cranky and nobody wanted to fix it).
- emmelaich 12y ago
  ifconfig didn't support infiniband and hadn't been maintained for many years. It was irritating at first but ip is a better, more capable tool. http://serverfault.com/questions/458628/should-i-quit-using-ifconfig http://serverfault.com/questions/458628/should-i-quit-using-...
  - ghshephard 12y ago
    I've never used "ip" in a sysadmin setting - the only command I've ever used on a nix (bsd, OS X, Solars, Linux) is ifconfig - which may just indicate I'm using the wrong command, but also demonstrates the issues involved in switching to a new command. Re- ifconfig/infiniband - this is ironic - because when I google "configure infiniband linux" - every page I come up with only mentions ifconfig, and never ip. (though, ifconfig is just used to display the interfaces, and it's usually other commands like ib that seem to be used to configure the infiniband interfaces)
hhw 12y ago
There's been a bit of revolution in OpenBSD as well, just smaller ones. OpenSSH, PF, and now LibreSSL were all fairly rapidly developed at inception due to issues with the original projects they replaced. They made it into the base system within 1 or 2 releases (every 6 months in OpenBSD), so there's no reticence to change or rapid development. However, they did take care to limit the projects to a well understood, readily achievable scope thus allowing them to ship on time (what a novel concept in software development!). OpenBSD also pioneered some major concepts in modern OS design such as privilege separation which has since been adopted by most other comparable operating systems. Yes, they do an excellent job of maintaining consistency, but a lot of that has to do with good design and careful choices, and not because they've avoided change.
- dredmorbius 12y ago
  OpenBSD has a remarkable history of identifying key and crucial elements and providing replacements on its own where necessary. It's also working on a set of Systemd shims as a replacement for systemd: http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTc4MjQ http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTc4MjQ

justincormack 12y ago

NetBSD is your traditional BSD for embedding. With nothing like systemd... give it a try.