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It's interesting that pro-level Magic: the Gathering players seem to almost all go on to have pretty successful professional lives. Maybe just being a physical

by cdr 12y ago

It's interesting that pro-level Magic: the Gathering players seem to almost all go on to have pretty successful professional lives. Maybe just being a physical game draws more well balanced people. Or that it's a solo game, despite teams being important for knowledge sharing at the pro level. Or that there's "down time" between Pro Tours - the number of weekly Grand Prix that are counted towards a season's score are even capped so that pros don't feel obligated to grind points week in and week out. You frequently read about "older" players skipping Pro Tours for exams or work or personal obligations.

emiliobumachar 12y ago
Maybe prior wealth is a factor. As a collectible cards game, MtG taken seriously is a significant money sink. I don't know anything about the pro scene, but I assume it's composed almost exclusively of people who spent several thousands in that one game, e.g. they either already have another profession going on or are wealthy enough to have the deck stacked in their favor (sorry, couldn't resist). Was that a wrong assumption? By contrast, WoW requires ample access to a computer and the internet, which may not be yours or not primarily bought for the game, plus subscription fees. Not for the poor, but does not scale with dedication to the game.
- cdr 12y ago
  The reputation as a "money sink" is somewhat undeserved. It can require a several hundred to several thousand dollar up-front investment, depending on how you play, but it's the only hobby I've ever seen where that investment can not just maintain but grow in value. I'm probably up $10,000 lifetime from Magic, though I got in early and invested heavily in older cards, so I'm something of an outlier. Absolutely anyone with the time to devote to learning the market can at minimum take very few losses. At the pro level, not that many players actually own the cards they play with. They're borrowed from collectors or loaned from shops. The cost of a deck is basically not an issue at the pro level. At the grinder level, yeah, the up-front cost can be. Most pro players probably do come from a reasonably privileged background, because you need to be able to spend the spare time to get good and have the resources to get to higher-level events to get good and qualify for the Pro Tour (the Online version mitigates travel costs somewhat, but it itself comes with costs). But I doubt most people trying to get to the Pro Tour are not any more wealthy than an average WoW player. Most grinders are college-age guys living on the cheap. Money is not the differentiating factor. IMO not being all-consuming is a factor (you think about it all the time, but you can't play it all the time short of spending $10/hour Online). If you're a pro performing well enough to be invited for an entire season, you technically only have to play four one-week events per year. Being physical and physically social is a factor. Being more analytical is a factor; notable numbers of pros have gone on to careers in stock trading, gambling odds-making, etc.
  - lgieron 12y ago
    > If you're a pro performing well enough to be invited for an entire season, you technically only have to play four one-week events per year. Being physical and physically social is a factor. Yeah, but only technically - in practice, intense preparation before each pro tour greatly increases your chances, so that's what most pros end up doing (esp. since the introduction of magic online, where they can practice, test out ideas etc. 24/7).
    - cdr 12y ago
      There are post-college PT players with jobs and other responsibilities that really do only play for 1-1.5 weeks before and during each PT, and maybe a couple GPs. Especially Hall of Famers who don't need to worry about qualifying.
- saraid216 12y ago
  Just to follow along cdr's comment, I want to point out that you never hear about anyone who sent their life down the drain over Magic. And it's because, as noted, if you sink money into the game, you can recoup some percentage of those costs by selling your assets. Say what you will about CCGs: they do, at least, provide you with tangible property that is unquestionably yours. That is not something WoW can claim.
alasdair_ 12y ago
I used to play a lot of competitive magic (including on the Pro Tour). Interestingly, although I barely play now (and own zero cards), the combination of playing MTG and playing WoW (in particular the auction house), led to my current startup focused on pricing collectibles of all kinds. Hell, we even track magic cards: http://www.mtgprice.com http://www.mtgprice.com

by cdr 12y ago

emiliobumachar 12y ago

Maybe prior wealth is a factor. As a collectible cards game, MtG taken seriously is a significant money sink. I don't know anything about the pro scene, but I assume it's composed almost exclusively of people who spent several thousands in that one game, e.g. they either already have another profession going on or are wealthy enough to have the deck stacked in their favor (sorry, couldn't resist). Was that a wrong assumption? By contrast, WoW requires ample access to a computer and the internet, which may not be yours or not primarily bought for the game, plus subscription fees. Not for the poor, but does not scale with dedication to the game.

cdr 12y ago
The reputation as a "money sink" is somewhat undeserved. It can require a several hundred to several thousand dollar up-front investment, depending on how you play, but it's the only hobby I've ever seen where that investment can not just maintain but grow in value. I'm probably up $10,000 lifetime from Magic, though I got in early and invested heavily in older cards, so I'm something of an outlier. Absolutely anyone with the time to devote to learning the market can at minimum take very few losses. At the pro level, not that many players actually own the cards they play with. They're borrowed from collectors or loaned from shops. The cost of a deck is basically not an issue at the pro level. At the grinder level, yeah, the up-front cost can be. Most pro players probably do come from a reasonably privileged background, because you need to be able to spend the spare time to get good and have the resources to get to higher-level events to get good and qualify for the Pro Tour (the Online version mitigates travel costs somewhat, but it itself comes with costs). But I doubt most people trying to get to the Pro Tour are not any more wealthy than an average WoW player. Most grinders are college-age guys living on the cheap. Money is not the differentiating factor. IMO not being all-consuming is a factor (you think about it all the time, but you can't play it all the time short of spending $10/hour Online). If you're a pro performing well enough to be invited for an entire season, you technically only have to play four one-week events per year. Being physical and physically social is a factor. Being more analytical is a factor; notable numbers of pros have gone on to careers in stock trading, gambling odds-making, etc.
- lgieron 12y ago
  > If you're a pro performing well enough to be invited for an entire season, you technically only have to play four one-week events per year. Being physical and physically social is a factor. Yeah, but only technically - in practice, intense preparation before each pro tour greatly increases your chances, so that's what most pros end up doing (esp. since the introduction of magic online, where they can practice, test out ideas etc. 24/7).
  - cdr 12y ago
    There are post-college PT players with jobs and other responsibilities that really do only play for 1-1.5 weeks before and during each PT, and maybe a couple GPs. Especially Hall of Famers who don't need to worry about qualifying.
saraid216 12y ago
Just to follow along cdr's comment, I want to point out that you never hear about anyone who sent their life down the drain over Magic. And it's because, as noted, if you sink money into the game, you can recoup some percentage of those costs by selling your assets. Say what you will about CCGs: they do, at least, provide you with tangible property that is unquestionably yours. That is not something WoW can claim.

alasdair_ 12y ago

I used to play a lot of competitive magic (including on the Pro Tour). Interestingly, although I barely play now (and own zero cards), the combination of playing MTG and playing WoW (in particular the auction house), led to my current startup focused on pricing collectibles of all kinds. Hell, we even track magic cards: http://www.mtgprice.com http://www.mtgprice.com