5 ms·

As shocking as it might be, the NSA has other things to do which actually are crucial for national security. Reforming the agency will go much further than basi

As shocking as it might be, the NSA has other things to do which actually are crucial for national security. Reforming the agency will go much further than basically saying "you can't have cool servers or toilets that flush." I know hating the NSA is en vogue but seriously. This is almost as bad as stonewalling and other hostilities toward other branches of government simply because the opposite party is in power (that goes both ways, before you think I'm attacking the right). The NSA committed grievous sin. I'm as upset about it as you. Even so, it baffles me that we would be having this conversation about water. God, stuff like this just depresses me. And that you love it, too. That depresses me as well. It's a cheap "rah rah go Utah sticking it to the man" puppet show that is ultimately meaningless, but you and many like you just eat it up. -- Edit: Between this stupid "you're submitting too fast" barrier that I've never seen until recently on a >year account, downvoting being blessed as okay to represent disagreement, graying comments as a result which silences disagreement and causes a dogpile effect, arbitrary shadowbans in 2014, and my critique of this political theater being interpreted as defense of the NSA or an advertisement that I need the condescension of having an intelligence agency explained to me (better: I'm not going to answer your question but anybody that passed US History knows the answer), HN has done a pretty good job of silencing opposing thought. I asked a question and it's barely legible. Even now, watching people Cmd+F my username and downvote every hit between refreshes. You sure showed me for not thinking like you! Since I disagree with many things HN holds dear, and since the people and technology have made clear that's not welcome, after six years of contributing to Hacker News on various accounts, I'm done. I can't take the technology nor the people any more. It amazes me how hostile HN is now, both socially and technically, and yet people remain. The crowning irony is that people here complain about becoming Reddit, yet on some of the very lesser-known subreddits I've had literally life-changing conversations. Here it's just bickering to see who is more right. Nothing of value comes of this thread, or the hundreds before it. Nothing. I want a refund of my time wasted here.

thizzbuzz 12y ago
I am not convinced that the NSA has any purpose. What do you think is necessary about the NSA?
- buttcoinslol 12y ago
  Collecting and analyzing information for foreign intelligence and counter-intelligence. This seems like a fairly necessary organ of state for the country with the largest military in the world.
  - ende 12y ago
    But that's what the CIA does. Which one is redundant then?
- optimusclimb 12y ago
  Possibly one of the most naive comments I've ever seen on here. We keep a military at the most basic level - so that another country can't send a boat full of troops over here, or airplanes filled with troops - invade us - and take over. In other words, basic protection against normal acts of war. Imagine if you, thizzbuzz, suddenly awoke tomorrow and found out the dictator of some small European country died, and you were the heir apparent. What would you want to have to make sure that Russia didn't just come in the next day with tanks and declare your country was now theirs? Oh - that would be a military. So great, you've made sure you have that. Now at the very least, if some other country violates your sovereignty, you can at least put up a fight, and it will be a visible spectacle to the rest of the world, which might come in and try and help you. Next up - Inhabitants of your country speak one language. The rest of the world speaks other languages. If a newspaper in a neighboring country starts publishing articles calling for an invasion of your country, in a language most of your inhabitants don't speak...isn't that something you'd like to be aware of? Who do you expect to be responsible for keeping tabs on that? Are you just going to hope that one of your citizens keeps tabs on it for you and drops you an email (at dictator@smalleurocountry.eu) to let you know you might want to be on the lookout for an invasion? Or would your citizens prefer your government is a little proactive about this? (assuming you're a benevolent dictator that wants to keep his country.) Sounds to me like you want some sort of government agency that keeps tabs on such things - you know, for NATIONAL SECURITY. What you DON'T want, if you have an American mindset, is for that agency to be spying on all of its native citizens. That doesn't mean you don't want such an agency to exist.
optimusclimb 12y ago
Hating the NSA is far from "en vogue"...more like, trying to avoid 2014 becoming "1984" (as in the book) is en vogue. You're hardly as "upset about it as you" if you can't see why any act that makes their NON-AMERICAN surveillance state harder to implement is a good idea. But then, you used a throwaway account, so I think that speaks for itself.
- jsmthrowaway 12y ago
  What in your eyes is an "American" intelligence agency? What does the phrase "American" mean to you in general? You capitalized it, so it's an important thrust of your point and, since it's almost always a meaningless hand wave instead of a useful adjective, I want to give you a chance to solidify your position before discarding it. Also, "throwaway" is a poor regex for "should disregard opinion". Click my profile.
  - optimusclimb 12y ago
    See my reply to "thizbuzz" in this thread for a very basic understanding of why I think having an intelligence agency makes sense at a basic level. As for your mentions of karma, and my commenting on "throwaway" being in your name - you're right, I don't click through and check the status of a user before replying to their comment on this forum, or any other - because I'd rather reply to what they wrote. Was I tricked by the "throwaway" in your username? Absolutely - your plan worked as you desired. If you think this makes me lazy, so be it. I'd say you intentionally mislead me, because putting "throwaway" in a profile is a common convention on internet forums, and I absolutely just accepted it as is. What does "American" mean to me in general? I'd say the founding fathers of our country made clear their intentions in the Constitution, and Bill of Rights. To me, being American at present means agreeing with those intentions - which encompass a lot of ideals about personal freedoms, and rights to privacy. I think the current attitude of many branches of our government toward our rights to privacy is "un-American" - especially with respect to the NSA. I'm not going to write a treatise here on exactly what that means, however I think it should be self evident to those who have a good grasp of American history. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that recent immigrants who have achieved citizenship and taken the requisite tests might have a better understanding of the concept of what "American" ideals supposedly are than many native born citizens.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
baddox 12y ago
Isn't this a semantic argument? There's really not much of a difference between "getting rid of the NSA" and "reforming the NSA by kicking out anyone in any way involved in the spying scandals and drastically overhauling the rules and oversight." Either way, you're getting rid of anything recognizable as the current NSA, and it doesn't really matter what you call the new agency that performs the legitimate tasks that the NSA is supposed to perform.
- CHY872 12y ago
  Well, not really. You'd absolutely destroy the NSA's experience and domain knowledge, setting back its operational capabilities by a matter of decades and basically put the Russians and the Chinese in the driving seat. It's not a small organisation - these things take a lot of time to set up properly.
interesting_guy 12y ago
All of what you said I reject except for the last paragraph.

thizzbuzz 12y ago

I am not convinced that the NSA has any purpose. What do you think is necessary about the NSA?

buttcoinslol 12y ago
Collecting and analyzing information for foreign intelligence and counter-intelligence. This seems like a fairly necessary organ of state for the country with the largest military in the world.
- ende 12y ago
  But that's what the CIA does. Which one is redundant then?
optimusclimb 12y ago
Possibly one of the most naive comments I've ever seen on here. We keep a military at the most basic level - so that another country can't send a boat full of troops over here, or airplanes filled with troops - invade us - and take over. In other words, basic protection against normal acts of war. Imagine if you, thizzbuzz, suddenly awoke tomorrow and found out the dictator of some small European country died, and you were the heir apparent. What would you want to have to make sure that Russia didn't just come in the next day with tanks and declare your country was now theirs? Oh - that would be a military. So great, you've made sure you have that. Now at the very least, if some other country violates your sovereignty, you can at least put up a fight, and it will be a visible spectacle to the rest of the world, which might come in and try and help you. Next up - Inhabitants of your country speak one language. The rest of the world speaks other languages. If a newspaper in a neighboring country starts publishing articles calling for an invasion of your country, in a language most of your inhabitants don't speak...isn't that something you'd like to be aware of? Who do you expect to be responsible for keeping tabs on that? Are you just going to hope that one of your citizens keeps tabs on it for you and drops you an email (at dictator@smalleurocountry.eu) to let you know you might want to be on the lookout for an invasion? Or would your citizens prefer your government is a little proactive about this? (assuming you're a benevolent dictator that wants to keep his country.) Sounds to me like you want some sort of government agency that keeps tabs on such things - you know, for NATIONAL SECURITY. What you DON'T want, if you have an American mindset, is for that agency to be spying on all of its native citizens. That doesn't mean you don't want such an agency to exist.

optimusclimb 12y ago

Hating the NSA is far from "en vogue"...more like, trying to avoid 2014 becoming "1984" (as in the book) is en vogue. You're hardly as "upset about it as you" if you can't see why any act that makes their NON-AMERICAN surveillance state harder to implement is a good idea. But then, you used a throwaway account, so I think that speaks for itself.

jsmthrowaway 12y ago
What in your eyes is an "American" intelligence agency? What does the phrase "American" mean to you in general? You capitalized it, so it's an important thrust of your point and, since it's almost always a meaningless hand wave instead of a useful adjective, I want to give you a chance to solidify your position before discarding it. Also, "throwaway" is a poor regex for "should disregard opinion". Click my profile.
- optimusclimb 12y ago
  See my reply to "thizbuzz" in this thread for a very basic understanding of why I think having an intelligence agency makes sense at a basic level. As for your mentions of karma, and my commenting on "throwaway" being in your name - you're right, I don't click through and check the status of a user before replying to their comment on this forum, or any other - because I'd rather reply to what they wrote. Was I tricked by the "throwaway" in your username? Absolutely - your plan worked as you desired. If you think this makes me lazy, so be it. I'd say you intentionally mislead me, because putting "throwaway" in a profile is a common convention on internet forums, and I absolutely just accepted it as is. What does "American" mean to me in general? I'd say the founding fathers of our country made clear their intentions in the Constitution, and Bill of Rights. To me, being American at present means agreeing with those intentions - which encompass a lot of ideals about personal freedoms, and rights to privacy. I think the current attitude of many branches of our government toward our rights to privacy is "un-American" - especially with respect to the NSA. I'm not going to write a treatise here on exactly what that means, however I think it should be self evident to those who have a good grasp of American history. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that recent immigrants who have achieved citizenship and taken the requisite tests might have a better understanding of the concept of what "American" ideals supposedly are than many native born citizens.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

baddox 12y ago

Isn't this a semantic argument? There's really not much of a difference between "getting rid of the NSA" and "reforming the NSA by kicking out anyone in any way involved in the spying scandals and drastically overhauling the rules and oversight." Either way, you're getting rid of anything recognizable as the current NSA, and it doesn't really matter what you call the new agency that performs the legitimate tasks that the NSA is supposed to perform.

CHY872 12y ago
Well, not really. You'd absolutely destroy the NSA's experience and domain knowledge, setting back its operational capabilities by a matter of decades and basically put the Russians and the Chinese in the driving seat. It's not a small organisation - these things take a lot of time to set up properly.

interesting_guy 12y ago

All of what you said I reject except for the last paragraph.