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The ignorance in this post runs deep. For example: Speaking of zones and Solaris, if that’s an option for you it’s probably the best of breed stack right now.

The ignorance in this post runs deep. For example: Speaking of zones and Solaris, if that’s an option for you it’s probably the best of breed stack right now. Does the author have no idea what's going on with Solaris? Hint: Nothing. Nothing is going on with Solaris, because Oracle doesn't care about Solaris. They closed the source, and now push out the occasional minor update from on high for their enterprise customers. Anyone who is suggesting Solaris as an alternative to Linux at this point in history is simply not credible.

jodrellblank 12y ago
Curious logic you have. "It doesn't have a constant stream of fixes. That proves it's no good. Things that need fixing are better than things that don't need fixing".
- SwellJoe 12y ago
  Software maintenance matters. A lot. Particularly for networked systems. Also, it hasn't been Open Source in several years. That makes Solaris utterly irrelevant in my world. This blog post is suggesting Linux users move to Solaris. It's just a bizarre recommendation, made as an off-the-cuff assertion with no reasons given. Also, Oracle. What hacker chooses to be beholden to Oracle?
  - agrover 12y ago
    Solaris is dead but Illumos lives on kinda.
  - threeseed 12y ago
    > What hacker chooses to be beholden to Oracle ? How about almost every single Java, Scale, Clojure etc developer. We are all using Oracle's JVM and they have been unquestionably a fantastic steward of the Java platform. I know the company deserves a lot of criticism but remember it is a big company with many different departments.
    - SwellJoe 12y ago
      Fair enough. I haven't followed Java in many years (long before the Oracle acquisition), so I don't have any point of reference. In my mind, and in my experience, Oracle make Microsoft seem like pretty nice guys.
      - vidarh 12y ago
        Ellison seems to have had a pretty solid inferiority complex when it comes to Gates. He must be pleased with how Oracle has now dethroned Microsoft as the Evil Empire, seeing as how even most hardened old Microsoft haters (I count myself in that group) now for the most part has at most slightly tepid lingering dislike for Microsoft, while Oracle has taken the exact opposite part.
    - matthewmacleod 12y ago
      We are all using Oracle's JVM…hey have been unquestionably a fantastic steward of the Java platform That is debatable. First off, we're not all using Oracle's JVM :) It's also not at all clear that Oracle has been "a fantastic steward of the Java platform." They don't appear to have totally wrecked it, but that's a low bar for "fantastic."
    - tormeh 12y ago
      I don't know about clojure, but Scala ships with openjdk. It's possible to use the oracle JVM, but that's not default. They rely on oracle for bytecode/behaviour spec and not much more. Personally I'd like to see more bytecode effort being directed towards supporting non-java languages on the JVM, so I'm not saying the status quo is ideal, but it's not that bad.
bcantrill 12y ago
He's actually suggesting SmartOS[1][2] and OmniOS[3], which are both illumos distros that are very much alive, having forked from OpenSolaris over four years ago.[4] [1] https://smartos.org/ https://smartos.org/ [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8571961 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8571961 [3] http://omnios.omniti.com/ http://omnios.omniti.com/ [4] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zRN7XLCRhc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zRN7XLCRhc
- SwellJoe 12y ago
  That's probably a wrong choice, too, for most Linux users (though there are some reasons a reasonable, and technically competent, person might choose an Illumos system, if you're doing it because a random crank on the Internet tells you to, you probably don't know enough to understand those reasons and the quite large tradeoffs you'd be making). Regardless, it's one example of many where the author exhibits a very poor grasp of...well, everything he talks about. Dunning-Kruger effect is funny that way.
  - bcantrill 12y ago
    You realize that you're just talking in ad hominem circles? You acknowledge that there are reasons that a "reasonable and technically competent person might choose an illumos system"; is it as least possible that someone advocating that choice might not be merely "a random crank on the Internet"? And given that this is potentially a reasonable choice, how does advocating it represent "a very poor grasp of [...] everything"? If there are specific technical arguments to make here, please make them; the repeated personal attack is unwarranted -- and unpersuasive.
    - SwellJoe 12y ago
      Yes, I find the whole article so full of wrong that I didn't think it needed more than simply calling it "wrong". Though seeing how many upvotes it now has, I guess I was wrong. But, if you insist, let's break it down a bit: "...FreeBSD...also ships with ZFS as part of the kernel and has a jails which is a much more baked technology and implementation than LXC." Which is an assertion that would require significant citation and specification about the ways in which the author believes jails to be superior in order to be a useful claim. I believe it is an assertion based on ignorance of either Jails or LXC, or the ways those technologies have been used historically and are being used today. For most of the uses I see talked about on HN, LXC is the "more baked" implementation. While Jails has existed for a long time, it was not intended for the purposes we're using LXC for today in Docker and similar deployments. The tools exist, the resource management exists, for LXC and they don't, or are quite rudimentary for jails. To suggest someone choose jails where they are currently using Docker and LXC is to suggest they live with a large variety of limitations and pain points, and in a lot of cases to simply not do what they are currently doing, or to do it in wildly different ways. All to avoid the minor pain that is represented by SystemD for most users. In short: Jails are not (currently) a reasonable alternative to LXC in that context, and it exhibits some kind of ignorance to suggest them. Continuing on, despite your suggestion that he is talking about SmartOS or OmniOS, he quite clearly is not. He specifically mentions Solaris while mentioning the others as other options: "Speaking of zones and Solaris, if that’s an option for you it’s probably the best of breed stack right now. Rich mature OS-level virtualization. SmartOS brings along KVM support for when you HAVE to run Linux but backed by Solaris tech under the hood. There’s also OmniOS as a variant as well." That paragraph clearly is recommending Solaris, specifically. If you'd like to argue that Solaris is a reasonable alternative for most Linux users, it's a conversation I'm going to opt out of. I'm pretty sure we'd be speaking completely different languages. "If you absolutely MUST run Linux, my recommendation is to minimize the interaction with the base distro as much as possible. CoreOS (when it’s finally baked and production ready) can bring you an LXC based ecosystem." So, CoreOS is the Linux option he recommends? The same CoreOS that uses SystemD? Indeed, was among the first distros to embrace SystemD with gusto. CoreOS, that is remarkably different than all other Linux distros. All because "Linux is becoming something different than it was"? So, in response to Linux becoming something different, he recommends people switch to something that is utterly different, like an entirely different operating system (FreeBSD, Solaris(!), etc.) or a Linux distribution that rethinks everything, not just the init system (CoreOS). All to avoid something being different. It absolutely boggles my mind, and I have hard time responding with anything other than derision; for that, I apologize. You're right that I haven't been particularly persuasive, and have been quite abrasive. This article just really rubbed me the wrong way.
imanaccount247 12y ago
>The ignorance in this post runs deep. The irony there is quite impressive. >Does the author have no idea what's going on with Solaris? Do you? http://wiki.illumos.org/display/illumos/illumos+Home http://wiki.illumos.org/display/illumos/illumos+Home https://smartos.org/ https://smartos.org/ http://openindiana.org/ http://openindiana.org/ http://omnios.omniti.com/ http://omnios.omniti.com/ Even the commercial Solaris from Oracle is actively updated and a release was done this year. Anyone who is suggesting Solaris is not an alternative to Linux at this point in history is simply not credible.
- SwellJoe 12y ago
  Yeah, actually, I do. I maintain a software project with a thousand or so Solaris installations.

jodrellblank 12y ago

Curious logic you have. "It doesn't have a constant stream of fixes. That proves it's no good. Things that need fixing are better than things that don't need fixing".

SwellJoe 12y ago
Software maintenance matters. A lot. Particularly for networked systems. Also, it hasn't been Open Source in several years. That makes Solaris utterly irrelevant in my world. This blog post is suggesting Linux users move to Solaris. It's just a bizarre recommendation, made as an off-the-cuff assertion with no reasons given. Also, Oracle. What hacker chooses to be beholden to Oracle?
- agrover 12y ago
  Solaris is dead but Illumos lives on kinda.
- threeseed 12y ago
  > What hacker chooses to be beholden to Oracle ? How about almost every single Java, Scale, Clojure etc developer. We are all using Oracle's JVM and they have been unquestionably a fantastic steward of the Java platform. I know the company deserves a lot of criticism but remember it is a big company with many different departments.
  - SwellJoe 12y ago
    Fair enough. I haven't followed Java in many years (long before the Oracle acquisition), so I don't have any point of reference. In my mind, and in my experience, Oracle make Microsoft seem like pretty nice guys.
    - vidarh 12y ago
      Ellison seems to have had a pretty solid inferiority complex when it comes to Gates. He must be pleased with how Oracle has now dethroned Microsoft as the Evil Empire, seeing as how even most hardened old Microsoft haters (I count myself in that group) now for the most part has at most slightly tepid lingering dislike for Microsoft, while Oracle has taken the exact opposite part.
  - matthewmacleod 12y ago
    We are all using Oracle's JVM…hey have been unquestionably a fantastic steward of the Java platform That is debatable. First off, we're not all using Oracle's JVM :) It's also not at all clear that Oracle has been "a fantastic steward of the Java platform." They don't appear to have totally wrecked it, but that's a low bar for "fantastic."
  - tormeh 12y ago
    I don't know about clojure, but Scala ships with openjdk. It's possible to use the oracle JVM, but that's not default. They rely on oracle for bytecode/behaviour spec and not much more. Personally I'd like to see more bytecode effort being directed towards supporting non-java languages on the JVM, so I'm not saying the status quo is ideal, but it's not that bad.

bcantrill 12y ago

He's actually suggesting SmartOS[1][2] and OmniOS[3], which are both illumos distros that are very much alive, having forked from OpenSolaris over four years ago.[4] [1] https://smartos.org/ https://smartos.org/ [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8571961 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8571961 [3] http://omnios.omniti.com/ http://omnios.omniti.com/ [4] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zRN7XLCRhc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zRN7XLCRhc

SwellJoe 12y ago
That's probably a wrong choice, too, for most Linux users (though there are some reasons a reasonable, and technically competent, person might choose an Illumos system, if you're doing it because a random crank on the Internet tells you to, you probably don't know enough to understand those reasons and the quite large tradeoffs you'd be making). Regardless, it's one example of many where the author exhibits a very poor grasp of...well, everything he talks about. Dunning-Kruger effect is funny that way.
- bcantrill 12y ago
  You realize that you're just talking in ad hominem circles? You acknowledge that there are reasons that a "reasonable and technically competent person might choose an illumos system"; is it as least possible that someone advocating that choice might not be merely "a random crank on the Internet"? And given that this is potentially a reasonable choice, how does advocating it represent "a very poor grasp of [...] everything"? If there are specific technical arguments to make here, please make them; the repeated personal attack is unwarranted -- and unpersuasive.
  - SwellJoe 12y ago
    Yes, I find the whole article so full of wrong that I didn't think it needed more than simply calling it "wrong". Though seeing how many upvotes it now has, I guess I was wrong. But, if you insist, let's break it down a bit: "...FreeBSD...also ships with ZFS as part of the kernel and has a jails which is a much more baked technology and implementation than LXC." Which is an assertion that would require significant citation and specification about the ways in which the author believes jails to be superior in order to be a useful claim. I believe it is an assertion based on ignorance of either Jails or LXC, or the ways those technologies have been used historically and are being used today. For most of the uses I see talked about on HN, LXC is the "more baked" implementation. While Jails has existed for a long time, it was not intended for the purposes we're using LXC for today in Docker and similar deployments. The tools exist, the resource management exists, for LXC and they don't, or are quite rudimentary for jails. To suggest someone choose jails where they are currently using Docker and LXC is to suggest they live with a large variety of limitations and pain points, and in a lot of cases to simply not do what they are currently doing, or to do it in wildly different ways. All to avoid the minor pain that is represented by SystemD for most users. In short: Jails are not (currently) a reasonable alternative to LXC in that context, and it exhibits some kind of ignorance to suggest them. Continuing on, despite your suggestion that he is talking about SmartOS or OmniOS, he quite clearly is not. He specifically mentions Solaris while mentioning the others as other options: "Speaking of zones and Solaris, if that’s an option for you it’s probably the best of breed stack right now. Rich mature OS-level virtualization. SmartOS brings along KVM support for when you HAVE to run Linux but backed by Solaris tech under the hood. There’s also OmniOS as a variant as well." That paragraph clearly is recommending Solaris, specifically. If you'd like to argue that Solaris is a reasonable alternative for most Linux users, it's a conversation I'm going to opt out of. I'm pretty sure we'd be speaking completely different languages. "If you absolutely MUST run Linux, my recommendation is to minimize the interaction with the base distro as much as possible. CoreOS (when it’s finally baked and production ready) can bring you an LXC based ecosystem." So, CoreOS is the Linux option he recommends? The same CoreOS that uses SystemD? Indeed, was among the first distros to embrace SystemD with gusto. CoreOS, that is remarkably different than all other Linux distros. All because "Linux is becoming something different than it was"? So, in response to Linux becoming something different, he recommends people switch to something that is utterly different, like an entirely different operating system (FreeBSD, Solaris(!), etc.) or a Linux distribution that rethinks everything, not just the init system (CoreOS). All to avoid something being different. It absolutely boggles my mind, and I have hard time responding with anything other than derision; for that, I apologize. You're right that I haven't been particularly persuasive, and have been quite abrasive. This article just really rubbed me the wrong way.

imanaccount247 12y ago

>The ignorance in this post runs deep. The irony there is quite impressive. >Does the author have no idea what's going on with Solaris? Do you? http://wiki.illumos.org/display/illumos/illumos+Home http://wiki.illumos.org/display/illumos/illumos+Home https://smartos.org/ https://smartos.org/ http://openindiana.org/ http://openindiana.org/ http://omnios.omniti.com/ http://omnios.omniti.com/ Even the commercial Solaris from Oracle is actively updated and a release was done this year. Anyone who is suggesting Solaris is not an alternative to Linux at this point in history is simply not credible.

SwellJoe 12y ago
Yeah, actually, I do. I maintain a software project with a thousand or so Solaris installations.