4 ms·

Stand Desk deducting 15% from all refunded, undelivered orders

5 points by master_coder 12y ago

Long time HN follower here. I've just never been concerned with sharing my thoughts with the public until today. Many of you may be aware of Stand Desk's presence as a Kickstarter project. They offer an affordable, seemingly well-thought-out electric stand desk. The problem is they haven't delivered to most backers. On top of that, they miscalculated shipping costs and upset a flurry of Kickstarter backers. Through all of that, I was ok with it all. I understand the process of starting a company. There are unforetold paths, missed dates, etc. Anybody who has worked in software understands this, and I'd like to foolishly believe they'd also be able to relate to company trials and tribulations such as Stand Desk's. I even emailed Stand Desk a couple of months ago to say it's ok to run into problems, and that no startup executes exactly as planned. I was sympathetic at that point. However, my circumstances have changed. I no longer need the desk. I will no longer be working remotely from home, I'll be in an office. I emailed Stand Desk today to ask for a refund, which they replied to in a quick and timely manner. There's just one catch. They want to charge me the 15% for wanting a refund, but I haven't even received the product yet. They're telling me that they incurred costs from Kickstarter and Amazon. Apparently 15% worth. To me, it sounds like they're placing the fault with me. The mere fact that I placed an order with them, puts me at blame for their Kickstarter and Amazon fees. This sounds like a poor choice of business ethics to me. Somebody please tell me I'm not being unreasonable to expect a full refund. A company that is delivering promises shouldn't be worried about a few, simple 100% refunds, which leads me to believe they've had even more people wanting a refund, and are struggling to place the blame with themselves.

smt88 12y ago
I understand your frustration and anger. I've been there myself. However, I think you should be angry at Kickstarter. They've created an environment where people can make promises they don't keep. After all, Kickstarter makes more money if promises are convincing (as opposed to realistic). So far, I've never backed a project that delivered what they promised. They've certainly never delivered it on-time. Kickstarter is, and should be marketed as, a gamble. You should never buy something you need there, nor should you expect to get what you "bought". It's not a marketplace. Kickstarter is asinine for letting these disappointments continue because they're letting the "Kickstarter is full of empty promises" stereotype take hold.
- master_coder 12y ago
  I don't mind the waiting. I've waited an extra 2 months for the desk anyways. If my circumstances hadn't changed, I may have continued waiting. My frustration purely is due to how they handled my request for a refund. Companies should be built to also take losses too, no? I view it like this... if I bought a product, received it and decided it was too small and wanted to ship it back, that's my fault. I would undoubtedly incur a restocking fee. Also, if I received the desk, it'd now be my responsibility to sell it online if I didn't want it. But I haven't received anything at all, so to me this isn't quite computing. What you said is indeed a shame about Kickstarter. This is the first and only project I've ever backed, and it'll be my last. Lesson learned. I appreciate your feedback.
  - wmf 12y ago
    Companies should be built to also take losses too, no? This is the key issue. Real companies build in some financial breathing room but Kickstarter projects don't. This puts them in a precarious position where their only choices are to under-deliver or to declare bankruptcy and probably deliver nothing. So if the rules are "full refund or else", you'll probably get the "else".
    - master_coder 12y ago
      I agree, but it doesn't and shouldn't make the buyers the ones at fault. Just as the buyers are accepting that the project may be late or may never, ever show up, which is the case with several, the companies should accept that it may upset some users, and refunds will be expected in full. To my knowledge, and I'm no lawyer (obviously), but not refunding a buyers money in full for a product undelivered doesn't seem legal. And even if it were legal, it doesn't mean it's good practice to treat the buyer as the enemy.
      - wmf 12y ago
        I think this kind of behavior comes from incompetence (setting prices too low), not treating customers as the enemy. Refusing refunds probably isn't legal; you can consult FTC regulations for the details. I'm sure you can get a full refund if you either do a chargeback or threaten to file an FTC complaint. Just consider whether putting them out of business is worth your 15%.
brd 12y ago
File a chargeback. Since you haven't received the pre-ordered product in the agreed time-frame your credit card (if its Visa) will likely accept it. I don't see Stand Desk having a good chance of winning the dispute since they didn't uphold their end and their current documented solution is to refund you 85% of the original amount. To the downvote: I think its reasonable for a kickstarter campaign as successful as this one (one where they're effectively an established company coming out of it) to be able to accept these edge cases as cost of doing business. Feel free to comment if you disagree.
- Pyrodogg 12y ago
  I don't like the idea because it's lending value to the argument that Kickstarter is a retail pre-order service. It isn't. People pledging money for projects need to understand that there are many factors of risk involved.
  - brd 12y ago
    The spirit of kickstarter is not a pre-order service but ultimately that is how many projects (this one included) leverage it. Even Kickstarter has admitted this via the changes they've made to their policy in regard to product based campaigns. I certainly would agree that chargebacks are an inappropriate response as a blanket statement for dealing with kickstarters but in cases where the campaign is widely successfully and marketed primarily as a means to pre-order I see nothing wrong it.
- master_coder 12y ago
  I've considered a chargeback, but it's generally not my nature. I'm going to wait for a reply from Stand Desk regarding my reply to their 15% incurred costs email. I find it discomforting to know that when I requested a refund, Helen replied and got me in touch with a manager, who processed the refund but won't disclose his/her name. I can't tell if the response is company policy, or somebody is playing a game trying to save money. Still trying to get to the bottom of this. I'll give them until tomorrow morning to reply to my concern before I send another email and/or handle it another way.
dangrossman 12y ago
Kickstarter is not a marketplace, it's a crowdfunding site. The projects looking for funding are not companies taking orders, they're people looking for startup capital to give their best effort at becoming a company. You can't hold them to the same standards as a retailer with cash flow and profits to spend on making people who've changed their minds about a purchase happy. You pledged to back the company, not just buy a product, and they're offering to let you renege on that pledge at cost. That's generous. The fees are real (Kickstarter and Amazon both take a ~5% cut). So are the risks you agreed to take on -- Kickstarter makes it pretty clear that projects don't often go as planned and that backing a project isn't the same as preordering a product. Late delivery is something to be expected, and "I've changed my mind" is never a reasonable reason for a refund when not offered (store refund policies are, for the most part, completely voluntary things; they have no obligation to take back non-defective goods after you've purchased). In short, I think you're unreasonable to expect a full refund from a high-ticket KickStarter pledge, so long as they haven't given up on trying to deliver. Take the 85% refund if you must, or wait until the desk is delivered then sell it.
- master_coder 12y ago
  I see your point. I knew the risks ahead of time, and raise you the fact that I received an email about logging in to their site to give them my address and pay for shipping. This was over a month ago. I sent Jason @ Stand Desk and email, explaining to him that I paid via Amazon, and I have no account on their site. And they don't allow you to "sign up." The account must pre-exist. I never received a response from him, so I could pay for shipping. At this point, it felt like they wanted my money so they could get their ball rolling, but when it came to shipping, they chose not to solidify the sale and allow me to receive anything. I wanted to pay for shipping and give them my address so I can get my desk. To me, this doesn't sound like good business practice. I understand they're busy, but not returning an email from a paying customer who's wanting to pay even more, albeit just delivery, leaves me to question their goal. It seems like they're trying to buy more time before they send out another round of emails saying "we're delayed again." It's bad enough I've received a couple emails and read several posts about this, and on top of that one about how they miscalculated shipping entirely and upset everybody. Shipping went from $80 to $160 for people across the country. I was perfectly fine with that too, and emailed them saying it was ok, but I wanted an update. That was September, and they promised me a desk in late October, early November. Here we are now, no update for me, and I can't even pay to get the desk delivered if I wanted to. Somehow this is my fault?
helen842000 12y ago
Sounds like they have refunded 100% of what they got of your pledge. The rest of your money is with Kickstarter & Amazon. I don't think they even had to give you a refund at all for your pledge. In my mind it's akin to asking a charity for a donation back. Remember Kickstarter is not a store.
jpetersonmn 12y ago
I think that was pretty nice of them to give you a refund.
- master_coder 12y ago
  That's akin to a kidnapper expecting to receive a thank you from a child they just gave bread crumbs and rusty water to for dinner. I am far from a self-entitled individual, but I expect proper communication from the company I've given $499 to in faith of receiving a product. I refuse to act like I'm a sufferer of Stockholm Syndrome.
  - jpetersonmn 12y ago
    Then you don't understand what kickstarter is or how it works. It's not the same as a pre-order at amazon. Read the terms at kickstarter, when you make a pledge you aren't entitled to a refund because you changed your mind. This company replied in a timely fashion and offered refund of 100% of the money they actually received from the individual. You're kidnapping analogy doesn't make any sense. Kidnap victims are taken and held against their will. Who forced you to back that kickstarter campaign?
    - wmf 12y ago
      If everyone persists in misunderstanding Kickstarter despite being reminded, does that mean everyone is wrong or Kickstarter is wrong?
      - jpetersonmn 12y ago
        You're assuming that 'everyone' misunderstands, however that's not the case. Most people get hot it works, it's the people that aren't happy about something that post about it. If it was most people then kickstarter wouldn't be the success that it is. it's similar to reviews for products, they are always biased to the negative. When you buy something and it just works how you expect, you probably don't go to the website and leave a review, you just go about your day. It's when it doesn't work as you expect that you are going to go post a review about it.
logn 12y ago
Most payment systems will allow sellers to issue refunds either free or with low flat cost (e.g., $.30). But Kickstarter is a different beast. I think they're probably only losing 10%, but maybe they're factoring in the cost of sending you money or if they incurred currency conversion or banking fees. Ethically, you presumably wanted to support this company, but now you're actually asking them to lose money. If you really just want your money back, in addition to chargebacks, ask your credit card company about your coverage in the event of refund/re-stocking fees. Some cards offer protection to cover you in this situation. Also, when initiating a chargeback, you can ask the credit card company to do a conference call with the seller and that might persuade them to do 100%, to avoid chargeback fees and potentially losing their processing account.

5 points by master_coder 12y ago

smt88 12y ago

I understand your frustration and anger. I've been there myself. However, I think you should be angry at Kickstarter. They've created an environment where people can make promises they don't keep. After all, Kickstarter makes more money if promises are convincing (as opposed to realistic). So far, I've never backed a project that delivered what they promised. They've certainly never delivered it on-time. Kickstarter is, and should be marketed as, a gamble. You should never buy something you need there, nor should you expect to get what you "bought". It's not a marketplace. Kickstarter is asinine for letting these disappointments continue because they're letting the "Kickstarter is full of empty promises" stereotype take hold.

master_coder 12y ago
I don't mind the waiting. I've waited an extra 2 months for the desk anyways. If my circumstances hadn't changed, I may have continued waiting. My frustration purely is due to how they handled my request for a refund. Companies should be built to also take losses too, no? I view it like this... if I bought a product, received it and decided it was too small and wanted to ship it back, that's my fault. I would undoubtedly incur a restocking fee. Also, if I received the desk, it'd now be my responsibility to sell it online if I didn't want it. But I haven't received anything at all, so to me this isn't quite computing. What you said is indeed a shame about Kickstarter. This is the first and only project I've ever backed, and it'll be my last. Lesson learned. I appreciate your feedback.
- wmf 12y ago
  Companies should be built to also take losses too, no? This is the key issue. Real companies build in some financial breathing room but Kickstarter projects don't. This puts them in a precarious position where their only choices are to under-deliver or to declare bankruptcy and probably deliver nothing. So if the rules are "full refund or else", you'll probably get the "else".
  - master_coder 12y ago
    I agree, but it doesn't and shouldn't make the buyers the ones at fault. Just as the buyers are accepting that the project may be late or may never, ever show up, which is the case with several, the companies should accept that it may upset some users, and refunds will be expected in full. To my knowledge, and I'm no lawyer (obviously), but not refunding a buyers money in full for a product undelivered doesn't seem legal. And even if it were legal, it doesn't mean it's good practice to treat the buyer as the enemy.
    - wmf 12y ago
      I think this kind of behavior comes from incompetence (setting prices too low), not treating customers as the enemy. Refusing refunds probably isn't legal; you can consult FTC regulations for the details. I'm sure you can get a full refund if you either do a chargeback or threaten to file an FTC complaint. Just consider whether putting them out of business is worth your 15%.

brd 12y ago

File a chargeback. Since you haven't received the pre-ordered product in the agreed time-frame your credit card (if its Visa) will likely accept it. I don't see Stand Desk having a good chance of winning the dispute since they didn't uphold their end and their current documented solution is to refund you 85% of the original amount. To the downvote: I think its reasonable for a kickstarter campaign as successful as this one (one where they're effectively an established company coming out of it) to be able to accept these edge cases as cost of doing business. Feel free to comment if you disagree.

Pyrodogg 12y ago
I don't like the idea because it's lending value to the argument that Kickstarter is a retail pre-order service. It isn't. People pledging money for projects need to understand that there are many factors of risk involved.
- brd 12y ago
  The spirit of kickstarter is not a pre-order service but ultimately that is how many projects (this one included) leverage it. Even Kickstarter has admitted this via the changes they've made to their policy in regard to product based campaigns. I certainly would agree that chargebacks are an inappropriate response as a blanket statement for dealing with kickstarters but in cases where the campaign is widely successfully and marketed primarily as a means to pre-order I see nothing wrong it.
master_coder 12y ago
I've considered a chargeback, but it's generally not my nature. I'm going to wait for a reply from Stand Desk regarding my reply to their 15% incurred costs email. I find it discomforting to know that when I requested a refund, Helen replied and got me in touch with a manager, who processed the refund but won't disclose his/her name. I can't tell if the response is company policy, or somebody is playing a game trying to save money. Still trying to get to the bottom of this. I'll give them until tomorrow morning to reply to my concern before I send another email and/or handle it another way.

dangrossman 12y ago

Kickstarter is not a marketplace, it's a crowdfunding site. The projects looking for funding are not companies taking orders, they're people looking for startup capital to give their best effort at becoming a company. You can't hold them to the same standards as a retailer with cash flow and profits to spend on making people who've changed their minds about a purchase happy. You pledged to back the company, not just buy a product, and they're offering to let you renege on that pledge at cost. That's generous. The fees are real (Kickstarter and Amazon both take a ~5% cut). So are the risks you agreed to take on -- Kickstarter makes it pretty clear that projects don't often go as planned and that backing a project isn't the same as preordering a product. Late delivery is something to be expected, and "I've changed my mind" is never a reasonable reason for a refund when not offered (store refund policies are, for the most part, completely voluntary things; they have no obligation to take back non-defective goods after you've purchased). In short, I think you're unreasonable to expect a full refund from a high-ticket KickStarter pledge, so long as they haven't given up on trying to deliver. Take the 85% refund if you must, or wait until the desk is delivered then sell it.

master_coder 12y ago
I see your point. I knew the risks ahead of time, and raise you the fact that I received an email about logging in to their site to give them my address and pay for shipping. This was over a month ago. I sent Jason @ Stand Desk and email, explaining to him that I paid via Amazon, and I have no account on their site. And they don't allow you to "sign up." The account must pre-exist. I never received a response from him, so I could pay for shipping. At this point, it felt like they wanted my money so they could get their ball rolling, but when it came to shipping, they chose not to solidify the sale and allow me to receive anything. I wanted to pay for shipping and give them my address so I can get my desk. To me, this doesn't sound like good business practice. I understand they're busy, but not returning an email from a paying customer who's wanting to pay even more, albeit just delivery, leaves me to question their goal. It seems like they're trying to buy more time before they send out another round of emails saying "we're delayed again." It's bad enough I've received a couple emails and read several posts about this, and on top of that one about how they miscalculated shipping entirely and upset everybody. Shipping went from $80 to $160 for people across the country. I was perfectly fine with that too, and emailed them saying it was ok, but I wanted an update. That was September, and they promised me a desk in late October, early November. Here we are now, no update for me, and I can't even pay to get the desk delivered if I wanted to. Somehow this is my fault?

helen842000 12y ago

Sounds like they have refunded 100% of what they got of your pledge. The rest of your money is with Kickstarter & Amazon. I don't think they even had to give you a refund at all for your pledge. In my mind it's akin to asking a charity for a donation back. Remember Kickstarter is not a store.

jpetersonmn 12y ago

I think that was pretty nice of them to give you a refund.

master_coder 12y ago
That's akin to a kidnapper expecting to receive a thank you from a child they just gave bread crumbs and rusty water to for dinner. I am far from a self-entitled individual, but I expect proper communication from the company I've given $499 to in faith of receiving a product. I refuse to act like I'm a sufferer of Stockholm Syndrome.
- jpetersonmn 12y ago
  Then you don't understand what kickstarter is or how it works. It's not the same as a pre-order at amazon. Read the terms at kickstarter, when you make a pledge you aren't entitled to a refund because you changed your mind. This company replied in a timely fashion and offered refund of 100% of the money they actually received from the individual. You're kidnapping analogy doesn't make any sense. Kidnap victims are taken and held against their will. Who forced you to back that kickstarter campaign?
  - wmf 12y ago
    If everyone persists in misunderstanding Kickstarter despite being reminded, does that mean everyone is wrong or Kickstarter is wrong?
    - jpetersonmn 12y ago
      You're assuming that 'everyone' misunderstands, however that's not the case. Most people get hot it works, it's the people that aren't happy about something that post about it. If it was most people then kickstarter wouldn't be the success that it is. it's similar to reviews for products, they are always biased to the negative. When you buy something and it just works how you expect, you probably don't go to the website and leave a review, you just go about your day. It's when it doesn't work as you expect that you are going to go post a review about it.

logn 12y ago

Most payment systems will allow sellers to issue refunds either free or with low flat cost (e.g., $.30). But Kickstarter is a different beast. I think they're probably only losing 10%, but maybe they're factoring in the cost of sending you money or if they incurred currency conversion or banking fees. Ethically, you presumably wanted to support this company, but now you're actually asking them to lose money. If you really just want your money back, in addition to chargebacks, ask your credit card company about your coverage in the event of refund/re-stocking fees. Some cards offer protection to cover you in this situation. Also, when initiating a chargeback, you can ask the credit card company to do a conference call with the seller and that might persuade them to do 100%, to avoid chargeback fees and potentially losing their processing account.