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Trends: Uber vs. Lyft

156 points by willthelaw 12y ago

Or, really, he quit using uber. (TL;DR - they are possibly evil)

general_failure 12y ago
This is silly. Make decisions based on actual experiences rather than hearsay in media. It is honestly appalling that you are attributing thus decisions to some sort of higher moral ground. If you are an american, that country wages war and kills at will. IPhone are made at foxconn, most products are made in China who gives a shit about our planet. I could go on. Did you quit all these already?
cheeze 12y ago
I also deleted the app earlier today. Even mentioning threatening journalists is incredibly ridiculous. I'm happy to see Lyft getting bigger in my city, and have had great experiences with them.
- joelrunyon 12y ago
  I like Lyft, but the app usability could seriously use some work.
- memonkey 12y ago
  I've only done Lyft and Uber a few times in LA and I'm almost inclined to say that those who drive for Lyft and Uber are eerily projecting the company they're working for. Lyft the company is far from being saintly, but the drivers I've encountered have been much more mature than the Uber drivers I've had (I once got a guy who insinuated that he drives under the influence). They have been a kind of odd experience. I am curious how many new drivers are following the politics.
- tomphoolery 12y ago
  I wish I could delete the US Government for this same reason. :) But seriously, I would love it if Lyft came to Philly...I think they're waiting to see what happens with UberX around here. I know this probably isn't going to be a popular opinion around HN, but should Uber succeed at circumventing the law in Philadelphia, Lyft and Sidecar will surely follow. Prior to UberX, other companies like Sidecar attempted to set up shop and got shot down by the state. Perhaps that's one good thing that came out of all this mess, since Uber isn't afraid to step on toes to get places, they've caused one hell of a discussion in Philadelphia and have forced the cab companies to really step up their game, providing better services, cleaner vehicles and easier dispatching. It used to be so difficult to get a cab, nowadays I can't even imagine walking anywhere just because I think maybe cabs will be out there...
  - onewaystreet 12y ago
    This is why no one will beat Uber. Its competitors aren't willing or aren't capable of winning the fight themselves. If Uber dies the ridesharing industry dies with it.
- fixedd 12y ago
  I really haven't kept up with this at all (I saw the articles, but didn't read), but I'm wondering why saying to journalists (and I'm happy to be corrected if I'm mistaken) "if you try dig up dirty laundry on us as an attempt to discredit us, we'll do the same to you" is unfair? Isn't this just a "reap what you sou" type scenario?
sswezey 12y ago
This article lacks any kind of substance: it is a short summary of a couple of links about Über with an accompanying graph of the blogger's Über/Lyft usage.
- stockkid 12y ago
  Yep. Just what I thought.
- memonkey 12y ago
  Meh, the article is a collection brief on pretty much everything that's been posted on HN. You're right though, it could have been summarized and sorted out better. Nobody is going to click and read every single article.
- robbiejonson 12y ago
  There's not much content, no. But there is something there: a brief story about how someone lost faith in a product/service. I like that instead of waxing lyrical about why they deleted the app, they point us to references instead. It's good enough for me.
- rtpg 12y ago
  The author has stated that he has reached his breaking point, and others should consider whether they have too. Disruptive companies have this narrative of being some sort of underdog fighting against the corrupt elite of a broken industry. If I'm going to agree with letting them take their huge margins (partly due to illegally not implementing regulations/collecting the proper taxes), they can at least pretend not to treat people as shit. Not like they need to penny-pinch anyways. At the end of the day, we always seem to end up becoming greedy exploiters of some underclass.
  - kjksf 12y ago
    Uber breaks the law, everybody knows about it and yet no one goes to jail or get sued. How does that happen? How does Uber avoids any consequences for their flagrantly illegal (according to you) behavior? Do they have magic "get out of jail" card? Did they manage to buy police, district attorneys, judges, the whole enchilada? Is it time to turn to street to overthrow our government, which, at least according to you, is incapable of performing it's function of preserving law and order in the face of those blatant criminals from Uber.
onewaystreet 12y ago
Did David quit using Facebook too?
chatman 12y ago
Just an assortment of links and rant. Nothing substantial in the article.
- NamTaf 12y ago
  It's a summary of why they feels they're done with Uber, drawing attention to publicised incidents. What substance did you expect, exactly?
dalovar 12y ago
Never used UBER. But from what i heard they don't seem friendly people
ethanhunt_ 12y ago
Only got through the first two links before I stopped reading. First link: says that Uber CEO Travis comes off as a bit of an ass in interviews, and therefore Uber should hire a PR person. So you're switching to Lyft because they have better PR people? Second link: an article with a headline that is misleading and would have a good run at being ruled libelous. TLDR: Travis said "I love [self driving cars] all day long. The Uber experience is expensive because it’s not just the car but the other dude in the car. When there’s no other dude in the car, the cost [of taking an Uber] gets cheaper than owning a vehicle." You have a problem with a business identifying a way to eliminate one of their biggest expenses? Humans driving cars around is a complete waste of time; anyone saying otherwise is a luddite (the best kind of luddite: one with a twitter account).
- chadillac 12y ago
  Biggest expenses AND biggest liabilities. If I could take a self driving Uber/Lyft/taxi I would do it in a heart beat, my experiences with Uber/Lyft have been much better than a run of the mill taxi which is why I tend to use them over taxis whenever possible. That being said, a self driving car with no personal motives, road rage, cell phone, etc. sounds like an even better experience.
- afro88 12y ago
  They seem to be in chronological order, from oldest to newest. Obviously this is a "straw that broke the camel's back" situation, not one where each individual thing is reason enough to stop using Uber.
siculars 12y ago
I was just in SF on business and had never used Uber or Lyft before. Obviously, voting with my dollars, I used Lyft and it was great. Lyft line was fast, cheap and got me where I needed to go.
eksith 12y ago
And this, folks, is why taxi regulation is a thing. Of course, there is crime and corruption and they have their own variety of scams[1]. But what you won't see is a sweeping sense of impunity because if you go out of bounds to this degree so blatantly (and at regular intervals, it seems), a rather large hammer will come down on you and your union. Taxi drivers in general are well aware of this. But a bunch of broexecs, who answer to no one, setting the tone for everyone else is unlikely to feel any need to change any time soon. [1] http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/tlc-22-000-cab-drivers-pulled-fast-riders-massive-rate-switching-scam-article-1.446427 http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/tlc-22-000-cab-drivers-p...
- nemothekid 12y ago
  So taxi regulations are in place to ensure faceless execs don't make mean remarks? Uber might not be startup of the month right now, but given the choice of excellent service for customers at the cost of a couple assholes in a boardroom somewhere versus crappy service while the execs try to please everyone, I'd choose excellent service every time. Ignoring the fact that, of course, taxi regulations don't stop people from being assholes; after all it has never stopped drivers from not picking up minorities.
  - comrh 12y ago
    I think regulations have more to do with the drivers not taking you on 20 mile detours, trying to sexually assault or yelling at a cancer patient (all Uber stories).
    - kjksf 12y ago
      So you have 3 stories about Uber. How about 1733 complaints against taxi drivers in 1 year in San Francisco alone? https://www.baycitizen.org/news/transportation/cab-complaints-climb-san-francisco/ https://www.baycitizen.org/news/transportation/cab-complaint... "San Francisco taxi drivers routinely flout the law by refusing rides, declining to take credit cards, charging unauthorized fees, speeding, smoking, and talking and texting on cellphones while driving, according to a year’s worth of passenger complaints reviewed by The Bay Citizen." How many of those drivers lost their license, do you think?
bby 12y ago
What cogent arguments he proposes.
msoad 12y ago
I stopped using Uber about six months ago. Lyft is both cheaper and more fun. Most of drivers I rode with were not full time driver. For me it's always fun to meet new people who are doing all sort of different things in their life.
- philwelch 12y ago
  Lyft sounds like it's more for extraverts--to me, the idea of sitting in the front seat, fist-bumping the driver, and riding around in a car with a stupid pink mustache on it sounds horrifying in much the same way that going on a cruise ship or getting caught in a cheesy tourist trap sounds horrifying. I think it's great that there are different services for different customers though.
  - wutbrodo 12y ago
    > Lyft sounds like it's more for extraverts--to me, the idea of sitting in the front seat, fist-bumping the driver, and riding around in a car with a stupid pink mustache on it sounds horrifying in much the same way that going on a cruise ship or getting caught in a cheesy tourist trap sounds horrifying. I've taken both Uber and Lyft dozens of times each over the last couple of years, and I really don't understand the sharp distinction that people seem to draw between their model of service. I get that their _marketing_ might differ (apparently Lyft was marketed as the smiley friendly Uber originally), but my experience has been literally identical: I sit in the seat I want to sit (I've never even thought about it..) and if I feel talkative, I talk to the driver and he/she always tends to talk back. If I don't feel talkative, Uber and Lyft drivers alike will leave me alone. They are 100% interchangeable services: just remember that when you get a ride with either, you're consuming the actual service, not the advertising.
    - philwelch 12y ago
      As long as the stupid pink mustache is optional then maybe I'll give it a try.
yummyfajitas 12y ago
Why do we dislike Uber? Lets go through the links. 1) Stuff about the CEO's personal life. 2) CEO wants to automate business processes. Those of us in tech would never consider replacing humans with machines, right? 3) Trying to compete for workers. (Didn't we hate Apple/Google for agreeing not to do this?) 4) We love Peter Thiel and he hates it. 5-7) A few Uber drivers are crazy (Uber is helping the cops). Note that if most of these incidents happened in a taxi, the cops would have little info unless the passenger remembered a license #. 8) Standard french advertising in France. 9) Standard PR. 10) Exec discusses hiring journalists to do journalism to journalists. You know, digging up stuff about their personal life, kind of like (1) on this list. Are these the real justifications? Or are we simply engaging in internet mobbing because we get to feel self righteous, and the CEO is kind of a jerk? Disclaimer: I've used Uber maybe 3-4x in my life and was happy every time. Lyft rejected my CC. I use autowale.in whenever I can't flag one off the street.
- CaptainZapp 12y ago
  looking at your comment history you seem emotionally highly invested into a company, which according to your claim, you have used 3x4 times in your life.
  - yummyfajitas 12y ago
    I have no idea why you believe I'm "emotionally highly invested" in Uber - could you explain? I don't like mob behavior and intellectual dishonesty. There has been a lot of it on HN lately which drives me to comment (also, due to an injury, I have way too much time on my hands).
    - CaptainZapp 12y ago
      Thanks for asking. I basically refer to your comments in which you quite vehemently defend the companies extremely shady tactics. As for mob behavior, which apparently disturbs you so much. This may, or may not be true. personally, I don't buy it. Let's look at your original comment to which I replied and let's try to rephrase the points you make. 1) Stuff about the CEO's personal life. Misogynistic comments (Boob-er) to a magazine has nothing whatsoever to do with the CEOs private life. The statements where not made at a private function, but to a mass market publication. 2) CEO wants to automate business processes. Those of us in tech would never consider replacing humans with machines, right? The point here is not that the CEO wants to automate business processes, but the disdain and disregard that he shows for his employees. Your phrasing of this point is, at best, highly disingenuous. 3) Trying to compete for workers. (Didn't we hate Apple/Google for agreeing not to do this?) The point, as you are probably very well aware, is not competing for workers, but the methods used to do that. The tech company violation of anti trust laws, while also unethical, has pretty much nothing to do with Ubers shady tactics in this context. 5-7) A few Uber drivers are crazy (Uber is helping the cops). Note that if most of these incidents happened in a taxi, the cops would have little info unless the passenger remembered a license #. Uber helps the cops? I'm sure they do if the cops have a warrant, since, in this case, there's not much choice anyway. for the rest we only have the word of Ubers PR Departments word on this Interestingly that's always the same standard broken record: "We're looking into it, actively support the investigation and we have deactivated the partner from the Uber platform" The problem is that in my opinion they come over as a bunch of liars in their PR, even in the not very trustworthy field of public relations. Hiring drivers, whom's background check must have failed, if done seriously, or smearing the victims of those incidents (again, in a partially very misogynist fashion) doesn't help much either. 8) Standard french advertising in France. I get it you where never in France. Hiring hookers as driver is not a French standard advertising practice. 9) Standard PR. maybe, but again with extremely shady tactics applied (and not very well executed, either) 10) Exec discusses hiring journalists to do journalism to journalists. You know, digging up stuff about their personal life, kind of like (1) on this list. Sounds more like a Scientology black ops towards critics, than a standard journalistic tactic. What you glossed over is their abuse of private data if it suits their interest. Which, again in my opinion, is actually worse than the idea to smear a journalist and go after her family. Put this reply of yours together with your comment history and applying Occam's razor you come over as an Uber shill and not as a person who hates mob mentality and has too much time on his had. But that's just my opinion.
hyh1048576 12y ago
Uber solves my problem and I think that's good. if Lyft ever expand to Beijing I might want to try it. In China Uber faces equally fierce competition, but they are doing well and expanding. (They are No.3 in China I guess) It's always nice to see more players get into this space.
birken 12y ago
If you live in San Francisco, you might consider getting a bike and/or using public transportation instead of ride-sharing services. Either of them are better for the city by reducing congestion and pollution, and biking in particular is surprisingly fast and convenient. If you are interested in getting introduced to biking, there are a bunch of free classes by the SF Bicycle Coalition that I highly recommend you look into: https://www.sfbike.org/resources/urban-bicycling-workshops/ https://www.sfbike.org/resources/urban-bicycling-workshops/ For public transportation, here are a couple of "far too specific" guides for different types of public transit: Light Rail: http://fartoospecific.tumblr.com/post/63733141599/fartoospecific-guide-san-francisco-public-transit http://fartoospecific.tumblr.com/post/63733141599/fartoospec... BART: http://fartoospecific.tumblr.com/post/100628937344/fartoospecific-guide-bart-bay-area-rapid-transit http://fartoospecific.tumblr.com/post/100628937344/fartoospe...
- codezero 12y ago
  I just started biking to/from caltrain and in the first week, I've already had someone try to steal my bike off the train and have nearly been hit by several cars in completely un-extraordinary circumstances. I'm sticking with it, but it doesn't paint a great picture for biking over other forms of convenient, readily available transport. Also the initial cost of biking, even when going for a super cheap bike and gear was ~$400, which will only pay for itself after ~6 months assuming I don't need to buy more gear (I already know I will, to deal with rain, and repairs). My alternative was paying $50 for monthly parking at the caltrain station. My cost estimate includes the price of gas to get to and from the caltrain station.
  - dredmorbius 12y ago
    I was going to say that $400 is going to pay for itself in dramatically less than six months if you're paying City prices for parking. $50/mo for CalTrain is a steal -- if you're parking _in_ SF anywhere near downtown or SOMA / South Park, that's a couple of day's charges, possibly a week's worth if you're walking a few blocks. I'd factor in a few other points on cycling in that you're getting exercise, replacing at least some of a gym or other cost. And your bike will almost certainly last more than six months. A decent bike will last a lifetime, or at least a good ten years. You'll want to factor in service and parts but if you're spending more than $100-$200/year, you're likely using it for more than just casual commuting. That's a few tanks of gasoline for a car.
halayli 12y ago
I see. So you check the CEO of all your apps before using them? You are obviously swayed left and right by media. Why do you trust your media sources so much?
finnn 12y ago
Last time I tried Lyft it wouldn't let me login without a Facebook account. Has that been fixed?
- dnautics 12y ago
  You can now do it via email only. If you are often in heavily crowded areas (like bars around 2am), I strongly recommend uploading a picture so the driver can recognize you in the masses. I can also get you a referral code :) pm me.
dnautics 12y ago
>There are too many instances of immaturity, deception, corruption, and negligence. As an uber and lyft driver (I prefer lyft) who has created a runway to launch a startup nonprofit by driving for both, lyft has had its share of immaturity and negligence, you just haven't heard about it as much. But only 2/4 is an improvement. What worries me is that in many cases lyft has looked at uber and done exactly what they do. In most cases so far it's been merely superficial, but I worry it is only time until it becomes more than that. A common mantra in the dual driver community is "uber is evil; lyft is incompetent"
- mikeleeorg 12y ago
  If you are willing to share more, I would love to hear more about your experiences with each. The Uber news definitely drowns out the Lyft news, and it would be great to get a balanced view of each.
Animats 12y ago
Uber won't be using driverless cars. They'd have to buy and maintain them. That would kill their "lightweight" business model. Their "car financing" deal is awful for buyers. See "http://valleywag.gawker.com/uber-and-its-shady-partners-are-pushing-drivers-into-su-1649936785" http://valleywag.gawker.com/uber-and-its-shady-partners-are-...
sinak 12y ago
The idea of any one company owning such a large proportion of global transport infrastructure seems scary to me. And the fact that Uber's leadership seems to have a very poor ethical compass makes the path we're headed down seem pretty ominous. I've been trying to think of better, less centralized solutions, and they're not too hard to imagine. An open transportation marketplace, populated by independent vendors, isn't so far-fetched. In fact it'd probably look quite similar to Craigslist, except with better handling of user identities and reputations, and a much better mobile-focused user experienced. Anyone could list a delivery service in one of a number of different categories, with custom price rules, and categories might include taxi/human transport services, food delivery, package delivery, etc. A review system, payment integration and mapping would come built into both the provider and user's mobile apps, but insurance etc. would be up to the individual vendors. Fees for listing services would be nominal, and almost all the revenue would go directly to the vendors themselves. The trouble with this kind of service is that it'd end up being quite a bit less safe and quite a bit more messy than interacting with a single company like Uber. But the lower transaction costs should make services significantly cheaper, and power would be much less centralized.
- logn 12y ago
  I think the solution is taxi cabs. If you want to disrupt taxis, petition your city/state politicians.
leeber 12y ago
If (keyword if) the CEO is as much of a douchebag as the media makes him out to be, he likely won't continue to be CEO for much longer.
rpm33 12y ago
I was expecting a more analytical analysis or a personal reason on why the OP decided to quit Uber.I'm not undermining the articles in the press, but those could happen to anyone. On keeping with the quality of HN I think we need to have a more deeper understanding of how companies should function.
spacefight 12y ago
Regarding its CEO: "When I tease him about his skyrocketing desirability, he deflects with a wisecrack about women on demand: “Yeah, we call that Boob-er.”" What a big big douche.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
chx 12y ago
This is a company that pushed subprime loans on its drivers then substracts the debt from their income. That's called indentured servitude. http://valleywag.gawker.com/uber-and-its-shady-partners-are-pushing-drivers-into-su-1649936785 http://valleywag.gawker.com/uber-and-its-shady-partners-are-...
downandout 12y ago
Uber will lose a few principled customers when, for example, a tech blogger blows something an executive said way out of proportion for their own financial gain. However, the market as a whole simply doesn't care about an executive that vents at a party, or that they engage in anti-competitive behavior, or that the CEO is kind of a jerk. People care that their ride shows up on time and gets them there safely. For the most part with Uber, that happens. Like it or not, Uber has attained critical mass and is here to stay.
physcab 12y ago
One of the things I've always hated about Uber is that they are in expert in euphemisms for wage cuts to consumers. "February is a slow month! We're gonna make this deal sweet for you by lowering prices 20%!" "March Madness, 20% off all rides!" "Summer Special, 20% off all rides!" "Summer Special is here to stay! 20% off all rides is permanent!" Now, lets not kid ourselves here. Uber is always going to get their cut. If you talk to any Uber driver (I was one of them at one point in time), they'll tell you their hourly wage has dropped from $30/hr to about $18/hr now. Still not bad, but now factor in the longer hours, the maintenance fees, the city fines...not so much a good deal anymore for the other side.
- wutbrodo 12y ago
  > One of the things I've always hated about Uber is that they are in expert in euphemisms for wage cuts to consumers. Oh please. Your average Lyft/Uber consumer has no clue about and no interest in what the labor-vs-capital cost breakdown is of ANY product they buy. It's really stretching the facts beyond all comprehension to say that calling it a price cut is a "euphemism": the people they're talking to with those messages only interact with the price and it's a price cut. No euphemisms involved. Complaints about whether the wages for their drivers are too low are completely fair game, but intellectual dishonesty and nonsense about how they use "euphemisms" to hide wage cuts is just Grade-A bullshit.
kokey 12y ago
It's interesting how taxi brokers are also like other fads and people will align to them according to their own values. Since before Uber there are many taxi companies with their own Uber-like service and taxi brokers similar to Uber. I know of people who switched company or broker based on statements the owner of the one company made on radio about cyclists. When Uber is new in town it is a 'cool' thing to do, but once they are not so new people find reasons to change. This makes for an interesting and dynamic market. I think companies like Uber hope to dominate the market and keep doing better at it through economies of scale, but passenger personal emotive preferences will probably always leave room for alternatives.
joshfraser 12y ago
My primary form of transportation is a bike, but my ride-sharing trends are pretty similar to David's. I've been using Lyft far more than Uber lately even though I view them as completely interchangeable services and I'm not known for having strong brand loyalty. In SF, Lyft and Uber are comparable on both price and speed, so it's an easy decision to use one service over the other, even if you only have a slight preference. For me the shift hasn't happened out of outrage at Uber, but because I like the Lyft experience so much more. Lyft drivers are overwhelmingly friendly and Lyft Line tends to attract similarly friendly people. I've had some great conversations while sharing rides on Lyft Line where I actually didn't want the ride to end so soon. I've swapped contact info with some cute girls, met a potential hire, and landed a couple new customers all while sharing rides on Lyft. I like that Lyft has a reputation for taking care of their drivers. In the words of one driver I rode with, "there are no drivers protesting outside the Lyft office". Instead, their drivers speak highly of the company. As a company, they seem like they are starting to find their stride. Their mission from the beginning was to get people to shares rides and fill up all those single-passenger cars you see everywhere. They're making good progress on that mission today and cutting down on traffic is something I care about as well. Uber has a ride-sharing option too, but they don't seem to be nearly as motivated by that purpose. I'm not sure what Uber's mission is actually.

156 points by willthelaw 12y ago

Or, really, he quit using uber. (TL;DR - they are possibly evil)

This is silly. Make decisions based on actual experiences rather than hearsay in media. It is honestly appalling that you are attributing thus decisions to some sort of higher moral ground. If you are an american, that country wages war and kills at will. IPhone are made at foxconn, most products are made in China who gives a shit about our planet. I could go on. Did you quit all these already?

cheeze 12y ago

I also deleted the app earlier today. Even mentioning threatening journalists is incredibly ridiculous. I'm happy to see Lyft getting bigger in my city, and have had great experiences with them.

joelrunyon 12y ago
I like Lyft, but the app usability could seriously use some work.
memonkey 12y ago
I've only done Lyft and Uber a few times in LA and I'm almost inclined to say that those who drive for Lyft and Uber are eerily projecting the company they're working for. Lyft the company is far from being saintly, but the drivers I've encountered have been much more mature than the Uber drivers I've had (I once got a guy who insinuated that he drives under the influence). They have been a kind of odd experience. I am curious how many new drivers are following the politics.
tomphoolery 12y ago
I wish I could delete the US Government for this same reason. :) But seriously, I would love it if Lyft came to Philly...I think they're waiting to see what happens with UberX around here. I know this probably isn't going to be a popular opinion around HN, but should Uber succeed at circumventing the law in Philadelphia, Lyft and Sidecar will surely follow. Prior to UberX, other companies like Sidecar attempted to set up shop and got shot down by the state. Perhaps that's one good thing that came out of all this mess, since Uber isn't afraid to step on toes to get places, they've caused one hell of a discussion in Philadelphia and have forced the cab companies to really step up their game, providing better services, cleaner vehicles and easier dispatching. It used to be so difficult to get a cab, nowadays I can't even imagine walking anywhere just because I think maybe cabs will be out there...
- onewaystreet 12y ago
  This is why no one will beat Uber. Its competitors aren't willing or aren't capable of winning the fight themselves. If Uber dies the ridesharing industry dies with it.
fixedd 12y ago
I really haven't kept up with this at all (I saw the articles, but didn't read), but I'm wondering why saying to journalists (and I'm happy to be corrected if I'm mistaken) "if you try dig up dirty laundry on us as an attempt to discredit us, we'll do the same to you" is unfair? Isn't this just a "reap what you sou" type scenario?

sswezey 12y ago

This article lacks any kind of substance: it is a short summary of a couple of links about Über with an accompanying graph of the blogger's Über/Lyft usage.

stockkid 12y ago
Yep. Just what I thought.
memonkey 12y ago
Meh, the article is a collection brief on pretty much everything that's been posted on HN. You're right though, it could have been summarized and sorted out better. Nobody is going to click and read every single article.
robbiejonson 12y ago
There's not much content, no. But there is something there: a brief story about how someone lost faith in a product/service. I like that instead of waxing lyrical about why they deleted the app, they point us to references instead. It's good enough for me.
rtpg 12y ago
The author has stated that he has reached his breaking point, and others should consider whether they have too. Disruptive companies have this narrative of being some sort of underdog fighting against the corrupt elite of a broken industry. If I'm going to agree with letting them take their huge margins (partly due to illegally not implementing regulations/collecting the proper taxes), they can at least pretend not to treat people as shit. Not like they need to penny-pinch anyways. At the end of the day, we always seem to end up becoming greedy exploiters of some underclass.
- kjksf 12y ago
  Uber breaks the law, everybody knows about it and yet no one goes to jail or get sued. How does that happen? How does Uber avoids any consequences for their flagrantly illegal (according to you) behavior? Do they have magic "get out of jail" card? Did they manage to buy police, district attorneys, judges, the whole enchilada? Is it time to turn to street to overthrow our government, which, at least according to you, is incapable of performing it's function of preserving law and order in the face of those blatant criminals from Uber.

onewaystreet 12y ago

Did David quit using Facebook too?

chatman 12y ago

Just an assortment of links and rant. Nothing substantial in the article.

NamTaf 12y ago
It's a summary of why they feels they're done with Uber, drawing attention to publicised incidents. What substance did you expect, exactly?

dalovar 12y ago

Never used UBER. But from what i heard they don't seem friendly people

ethanhunt_ 12y ago

Only got through the first two links before I stopped reading. First link: says that Uber CEO Travis comes off as a bit of an ass in interviews, and therefore Uber should hire a PR person. So you're switching to Lyft because they have better PR people? Second link: an article with a headline that is misleading and would have a good run at being ruled libelous. TLDR: Travis said "I love [self driving cars] all day long. The Uber experience is expensive because it’s not just the car but the other dude in the car. When there’s no other dude in the car, the cost [of taking an Uber] gets cheaper than owning a vehicle." You have a problem with a business identifying a way to eliminate one of their biggest expenses? Humans driving cars around is a complete waste of time; anyone saying otherwise is a luddite (the best kind of luddite: one with a twitter account).

chadillac 12y ago
Biggest expenses AND biggest liabilities. If I could take a self driving Uber/Lyft/taxi I would do it in a heart beat, my experiences with Uber/Lyft have been much better than a run of the mill taxi which is why I tend to use them over taxis whenever possible. That being said, a self driving car with no personal motives, road rage, cell phone, etc. sounds like an even better experience.
afro88 12y ago
They seem to be in chronological order, from oldest to newest. Obviously this is a "straw that broke the camel's back" situation, not one where each individual thing is reason enough to stop using Uber.

siculars 12y ago

I was just in SF on business and had never used Uber or Lyft before. Obviously, voting with my dollars, I used Lyft and it was great. Lyft line was fast, cheap and got me where I needed to go.

eksith 12y ago

And this, folks, is why taxi regulation is a thing. Of course, there is crime and corruption and they have their own variety of scams[1]. But what you won't see is a sweeping sense of impunity because if you go out of bounds to this degree so blatantly (and at regular intervals, it seems), a rather large hammer will come down on you and your union. Taxi drivers in general are well aware of this. But a bunch of broexecs, who answer to no one, setting the tone for everyone else is unlikely to feel any need to change any time soon. [1] http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/tlc-22-000-cab-drivers-pulled-fast-riders-massive-rate-switching-scam-article-1.446427 http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/tlc-22-000-cab-drivers-p...

nemothekid 12y ago
So taxi regulations are in place to ensure faceless execs don't make mean remarks? Uber might not be startup of the month right now, but given the choice of excellent service for customers at the cost of a couple assholes in a boardroom somewhere versus crappy service while the execs try to please everyone, I'd choose excellent service every time. Ignoring the fact that, of course, taxi regulations don't stop people from being assholes; after all it has never stopped drivers from not picking up minorities.
- comrh 12y ago
  I think regulations have more to do with the drivers not taking you on 20 mile detours, trying to sexually assault or yelling at a cancer patient (all Uber stories).
  - kjksf 12y ago
    So you have 3 stories about Uber. How about 1733 complaints against taxi drivers in 1 year in San Francisco alone? https://www.baycitizen.org/news/transportation/cab-complaints-climb-san-francisco/ https://www.baycitizen.org/news/transportation/cab-complaint... "San Francisco taxi drivers routinely flout the law by refusing rides, declining to take credit cards, charging unauthorized fees, speeding, smoking, and talking and texting on cellphones while driving, according to a year’s worth of passenger complaints reviewed by The Bay Citizen." How many of those drivers lost their license, do you think?

bby 12y ago

What cogent arguments he proposes.

msoad 12y ago

I stopped using Uber about six months ago. Lyft is both cheaper and more fun. Most of drivers I rode with were not full time driver. For me it's always fun to meet new people who are doing all sort of different things in their life.

philwelch 12y ago
Lyft sounds like it's more for extraverts--to me, the idea of sitting in the front seat, fist-bumping the driver, and riding around in a car with a stupid pink mustache on it sounds horrifying in much the same way that going on a cruise ship or getting caught in a cheesy tourist trap sounds horrifying. I think it's great that there are different services for different customers though.
- wutbrodo 12y ago
  > Lyft sounds like it's more for extraverts--to me, the idea of sitting in the front seat, fist-bumping the driver, and riding around in a car with a stupid pink mustache on it sounds horrifying in much the same way that going on a cruise ship or getting caught in a cheesy tourist trap sounds horrifying. I've taken both Uber and Lyft dozens of times each over the last couple of years, and I really don't understand the sharp distinction that people seem to draw between their model of service. I get that their _marketing_ might differ (apparently Lyft was marketed as the smiley friendly Uber originally), but my experience has been literally identical: I sit in the seat I want to sit (I've never even thought about it..) and if I feel talkative, I talk to the driver and he/she always tends to talk back. If I don't feel talkative, Uber and Lyft drivers alike will leave me alone. They are 100% interchangeable services: just remember that when you get a ride with either, you're consuming the actual service, not the advertising.
  - philwelch 12y ago
    As long as the stupid pink mustache is optional then maybe I'll give it a try.

yummyfajitas 12y ago

Why do we dislike Uber? Lets go through the links. 1) Stuff about the CEO's personal life. 2) CEO wants to automate business processes. Those of us in tech would never consider replacing humans with machines, right? 3) Trying to compete for workers. (Didn't we hate Apple/Google for agreeing not to do this?) 4) We love Peter Thiel and he hates it. 5-7) A few Uber drivers are crazy (Uber is helping the cops). Note that if most of these incidents happened in a taxi, the cops would have little info unless the passenger remembered a license #. 8) Standard french advertising in France. 9) Standard PR. 10) Exec discusses hiring journalists to do journalism to journalists. You know, digging up stuff about their personal life, kind of like (1) on this list. Are these the real justifications? Or are we simply engaging in internet mobbing because we get to feel self righteous, and the CEO is kind of a jerk? Disclaimer: I've used Uber maybe 3-4x in my life and was happy every time. Lyft rejected my CC. I use autowale.in whenever I can't flag one off the street.

CaptainZapp 12y ago
looking at your comment history you seem emotionally highly invested into a company, which according to your claim, you have used 3x4 times in your life.
- yummyfajitas 12y ago
  I have no idea why you believe I'm "emotionally highly invested" in Uber - could you explain? I don't like mob behavior and intellectual dishonesty. There has been a lot of it on HN lately which drives me to comment (also, due to an injury, I have way too much time on my hands).
  - CaptainZapp 12y ago
    Thanks for asking. I basically refer to your comments in which you quite vehemently defend the companies extremely shady tactics. As for mob behavior, which apparently disturbs you so much. This may, or may not be true. personally, I don't buy it. Let's look at your original comment to which I replied and let's try to rephrase the points you make. 1) Stuff about the CEO's personal life. Misogynistic comments (Boob-er) to a magazine has nothing whatsoever to do with the CEOs private life. The statements where not made at a private function, but to a mass market publication. 2) CEO wants to automate business processes. Those of us in tech would never consider replacing humans with machines, right? The point here is not that the CEO wants to automate business processes, but the disdain and disregard that he shows for his employees. Your phrasing of this point is, at best, highly disingenuous. 3) Trying to compete for workers. (Didn't we hate Apple/Google for agreeing not to do this?) The point, as you are probably very well aware, is not competing for workers, but the methods used to do that. The tech company violation of anti trust laws, while also unethical, has pretty much nothing to do with Ubers shady tactics in this context. 5-7) A few Uber drivers are crazy (Uber is helping the cops). Note that if most of these incidents happened in a taxi, the cops would have little info unless the passenger remembered a license #. Uber helps the cops? I'm sure they do if the cops have a warrant, since, in this case, there's not much choice anyway. for the rest we only have the word of Ubers PR Departments word on this Interestingly that's always the same standard broken record: "We're looking into it, actively support the investigation and we have deactivated the partner from the Uber platform" The problem is that in my opinion they come over as a bunch of liars in their PR, even in the not very trustworthy field of public relations. Hiring drivers, whom's background check must have failed, if done seriously, or smearing the victims of those incidents (again, in a partially very misogynist fashion) doesn't help much either. 8) Standard french advertising in France. I get it you where never in France. Hiring hookers as driver is not a French standard advertising practice. 9) Standard PR. maybe, but again with extremely shady tactics applied (and not very well executed, either) 10) Exec discusses hiring journalists to do journalism to journalists. You know, digging up stuff about their personal life, kind of like (1) on this list. Sounds more like a Scientology black ops towards critics, than a standard journalistic tactic. What you glossed over is their abuse of private data if it suits their interest. Which, again in my opinion, is actually worse than the idea to smear a journalist and go after her family. Put this reply of yours together with your comment history and applying Occam's razor you come over as an Uber shill and not as a person who hates mob mentality and has too much time on his had. But that's just my opinion.

hyh1048576 12y ago

Uber solves my problem and I think that's good. if Lyft ever expand to Beijing I might want to try it. In China Uber faces equally fierce competition, but they are doing well and expanding. (They are No.3 in China I guess) It's always nice to see more players get into this space.

birken 12y ago

If you live in San Francisco, you might consider getting a bike and/or using public transportation instead of ride-sharing services. Either of them are better for the city by reducing congestion and pollution, and biking in particular is surprisingly fast and convenient. If you are interested in getting introduced to biking, there are a bunch of free classes by the SF Bicycle Coalition that I highly recommend you look into: https://www.sfbike.org/resources/urban-bicycling-workshops/ https://www.sfbike.org/resources/urban-bicycling-workshops/ For public transportation, here are a couple of "far too specific" guides for different types of public transit: Light Rail: http://fartoospecific.tumblr.com/post/63733141599/fartoospecific-guide-san-francisco-public-transit http://fartoospecific.tumblr.com/post/63733141599/fartoospec... BART: http://fartoospecific.tumblr.com/post/100628937344/fartoospecific-guide-bart-bay-area-rapid-transit http://fartoospecific.tumblr.com/post/100628937344/fartoospe...

codezero 12y ago
I just started biking to/from caltrain and in the first week, I've already had someone try to steal my bike off the train and have nearly been hit by several cars in completely un-extraordinary circumstances. I'm sticking with it, but it doesn't paint a great picture for biking over other forms of convenient, readily available transport. Also the initial cost of biking, even when going for a super cheap bike and gear was ~$400, which will only pay for itself after ~6 months assuming I don't need to buy more gear (I already know I will, to deal with rain, and repairs). My alternative was paying $50 for monthly parking at the caltrain station. My cost estimate includes the price of gas to get to and from the caltrain station.
- dredmorbius 12y ago
  I was going to say that $400 is going to pay for itself in dramatically less than six months if you're paying City prices for parking. $50/mo for CalTrain is a steal -- if you're parking _in_ SF anywhere near downtown or SOMA / South Park, that's a couple of day's charges, possibly a week's worth if you're walking a few blocks. I'd factor in a few other points on cycling in that you're getting exercise, replacing at least some of a gym or other cost. And your bike will almost certainly last more than six months. A decent bike will last a lifetime, or at least a good ten years. You'll want to factor in service and parts but if you're spending more than $100-$200/year, you're likely using it for more than just casual commuting. That's a few tanks of gasoline for a car.

halayli 12y ago

I see. So you check the CEO of all your apps before using them? You are obviously swayed left and right by media. Why do you trust your media sources so much?

finnn 12y ago

Last time I tried Lyft it wouldn't let me login without a Facebook account. Has that been fixed?

dnautics 12y ago
You can now do it via email only. If you are often in heavily crowded areas (like bars around 2am), I strongly recommend uploading a picture so the driver can recognize you in the masses. I can also get you a referral code :) pm me.

dnautics 12y ago

>There are too many instances of immaturity, deception, corruption, and negligence. As an uber and lyft driver (I prefer lyft) who has created a runway to launch a startup nonprofit by driving for both, lyft has had its share of immaturity and negligence, you just haven't heard about it as much. But only 2/4 is an improvement. What worries me is that in many cases lyft has looked at uber and done exactly what they do. In most cases so far it's been merely superficial, but I worry it is only time until it becomes more than that. A common mantra in the dual driver community is "uber is evil; lyft is incompetent"

mikeleeorg 12y ago
If you are willing to share more, I would love to hear more about your experiences with each. The Uber news definitely drowns out the Lyft news, and it would be great to get a balanced view of each.

Animats 12y ago

Uber won't be using driverless cars. They'd have to buy and maintain them. That would kill their "lightweight" business model. Their "car financing" deal is awful for buyers. See "http://valleywag.gawker.com/uber-and-its-shady-partners-are-pushing-drivers-into-su-1649936785" http://valleywag.gawker.com/uber-and-its-shady-partners-are-...

sinak 12y ago

The idea of any one company owning such a large proportion of global transport infrastructure seems scary to me. And the fact that Uber's leadership seems to have a very poor ethical compass makes the path we're headed down seem pretty ominous. I've been trying to think of better, less centralized solutions, and they're not too hard to imagine. An open transportation marketplace, populated by independent vendors, isn't so far-fetched. In fact it'd probably look quite similar to Craigslist, except with better handling of user identities and reputations, and a much better mobile-focused user experienced. Anyone could list a delivery service in one of a number of different categories, with custom price rules, and categories might include taxi/human transport services, food delivery, package delivery, etc. A review system, payment integration and mapping would come built into both the provider and user's mobile apps, but insurance etc. would be up to the individual vendors. Fees for listing services would be nominal, and almost all the revenue would go directly to the vendors themselves. The trouble with this kind of service is that it'd end up being quite a bit less safe and quite a bit more messy than interacting with a single company like Uber. But the lower transaction costs should make services significantly cheaper, and power would be much less centralized.

logn 12y ago
I think the solution is taxi cabs. If you want to disrupt taxis, petition your city/state politicians.

leeber 12y ago

If (keyword if) the CEO is as much of a douchebag as the media makes him out to be, he likely won't continue to be CEO for much longer.

rpm33 12y ago

I was expecting a more analytical analysis or a personal reason on why the OP decided to quit Uber.I'm not undermining the articles in the press, but those could happen to anyone. On keeping with the quality of HN I think we need to have a more deeper understanding of how companies should function.

spacefight 12y ago

Regarding its CEO: "When I tease him about his skyrocketing desirability, he deflects with a wisecrack about women on demand: “Yeah, we call that Boob-er.”" What a big big douche.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

chx 12y ago

This is a company that pushed subprime loans on its drivers then substracts the debt from their income. That's called indentured servitude. http://valleywag.gawker.com/uber-and-its-shady-partners-are-pushing-drivers-into-su-1649936785 http://valleywag.gawker.com/uber-and-its-shady-partners-are-...

downandout 12y ago

Uber will lose a few principled customers when, for example, a tech blogger blows something an executive said way out of proportion for their own financial gain. However, the market as a whole simply doesn't care about an executive that vents at a party, or that they engage in anti-competitive behavior, or that the CEO is kind of a jerk. People care that their ride shows up on time and gets them there safely. For the most part with Uber, that happens. Like it or not, Uber has attained critical mass and is here to stay.

physcab 12y ago

One of the things I've always hated about Uber is that they are in expert in euphemisms for wage cuts to consumers. "February is a slow month! We're gonna make this deal sweet for you by lowering prices 20%!" "March Madness, 20% off all rides!" "Summer Special, 20% off all rides!" "Summer Special is here to stay! 20% off all rides is permanent!" Now, lets not kid ourselves here. Uber is always going to get their cut. If you talk to any Uber driver (I was one of them at one point in time), they'll tell you their hourly wage has dropped from $30/hr to about $18/hr now. Still not bad, but now factor in the longer hours, the maintenance fees, the city fines...not so much a good deal anymore for the other side.

wutbrodo 12y ago
> One of the things I've always hated about Uber is that they are in expert in euphemisms for wage cuts to consumers. Oh please. Your average Lyft/Uber consumer has no clue about and no interest in what the labor-vs-capital cost breakdown is of ANY product they buy. It's really stretching the facts beyond all comprehension to say that calling it a price cut is a "euphemism": the people they're talking to with those messages only interact with the price and it's a price cut. No euphemisms involved. Complaints about whether the wages for their drivers are too low are completely fair game, but intellectual dishonesty and nonsense about how they use "euphemisms" to hide wage cuts is just Grade-A bullshit.

kokey 12y ago

It's interesting how taxi brokers are also like other fads and people will align to them according to their own values. Since before Uber there are many taxi companies with their own Uber-like service and taxi brokers similar to Uber. I know of people who switched company or broker based on statements the owner of the one company made on radio about cyclists. When Uber is new in town it is a 'cool' thing to do, but once they are not so new people find reasons to change. This makes for an interesting and dynamic market. I think companies like Uber hope to dominate the market and keep doing better at it through economies of scale, but passenger personal emotive preferences will probably always leave room for alternatives.

joshfraser 12y ago

My primary form of transportation is a bike, but my ride-sharing trends are pretty similar to David's. I've been using Lyft far more than Uber lately even though I view them as completely interchangeable services and I'm not known for having strong brand loyalty. In SF, Lyft and Uber are comparable on both price and speed, so it's an easy decision to use one service over the other, even if you only have a slight preference. For me the shift hasn't happened out of outrage at Uber, but because I like the Lyft experience so much more. Lyft drivers are overwhelmingly friendly and Lyft Line tends to attract similarly friendly people. I've had some great conversations while sharing rides on Lyft Line where I actually didn't want the ride to end so soon. I've swapped contact info with some cute girls, met a potential hire, and landed a couple new customers all while sharing rides on Lyft. I like that Lyft has a reputation for taking care of their drivers. In the words of one driver I rode with, "there are no drivers protesting outside the Lyft office". Instead, their drivers speak highly of the company. As a company, they seem like they are starting to find their stride. Their mission from the beginning was to get people to shares rides and fill up all those single-passenger cars you see everywhere. They're making good progress on that mission today and cutting down on traffic is something I care about as well. Uber has a ride-sharing option too, but they don't seem to be nearly as motivated by that purpose. I'm not sure what Uber's mission is actually.