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As a part of the Oil and Gas industry, I find this inexcusable. The industry is going to be a part of international energy picture for the long-term, and there

by jdhawk 12y ago

As a part of the Oil and Gas industry, I find this inexcusable. The industry is going to be a part of international energy picture for the long-term, and there are "environmentally responsible" ways to economically produce O&G. These corner cutting idiotic antics hurt the image of the whole industry, and are becoming more common. Sadly, with the size of the industry, the demand for the product, and the desire to keep the price low, its difficult to oversee every action.

sp332 12y ago
This probably isn't what you meant, but it sounds like you're saying that the industry is making the industry look bad.
- codyb 12y ago
  I think he's saying that the corner cutters which are part of the industry make the whole industry look bad.
  - alexqgb 12y ago
    Except the industry as a whole makes itself look bad when it opposes the kind of (admittedly brutal) regulation that would terrify the corner-cutters out of existence. The degree of recklessness and criminality at the fringes of an industry is directly proportional to the contempt in which the public is held by those at the center. If the "leaders" are continually pushing the limits (e.g. BP), it's not surprising when the more marginal players overshoot them entirely. This is doubly true when the same "leaders" have spent more than a decade lavishly financing a public disinformation campaign (read: systematic lying) to downplay the environmental safety risks of their product, while twisting the arms of any elected officials who dare stand in their way. And remember, "standing in their way" goes beyond the imposition of effective health and safety regulations. It also includes efforts to curtail enormous public subsidies for what would remain an exceedingly profitable business with no subsidies at all. It's like a Gambino family shakedown run by people with the political clout of the U.S. military. It's true, stuff like the (potential) destruction of aquifers does make the industry as a whole look bad. But if the OP thinks this represents the extent of the PR problems faced by the oil and gas industries, he needs to start paying much closer attention to the political agenda of the business in which he makes a living. It's...not pretty. The best thing we could do with our oil and gas resources is to use the amount we can safely burn to make the massive infrastructure changes that a sustainably low-carbon economy will need, then write off the balance of the planet's known reserves, and peacefully and voluntary close up shop once the transition is complete.
    - saryant 12y ago
      Long before Deepwater, BP was known for its shoddy safety standards by the other supermajors. They were the butt of many jokes within the industry.
      - sp332 12y ago
        Definitely a case of the industry making itself look bad! The Minerals Management Service kept giving Transocean (who built the Deepwater Horizon rig) safety awards. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deepwater_Horizon_explosion#Transocean_safety_record https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deepwater_Horizon_explosion#Tr...
        saryant 12y ago
        Note that BP wasn't allowed into the industry consortium responsible for deepwater drilling safety and monitoring—they aren't trusted by the rest of the industry.
        fnordfnordfnord 12y ago
        Hyundai built the rig. It had been in use for almost a decade before the disaster. </Pedantry>
melling 12y ago
"We're sorry for any inconvenience and we regret..." Someone should have to pay for this. If the standard excuse is all you need, there's always going to be someone who is simply going to do the same thing.
- thrownaway2424 12y ago
  Right, that's the fundamental problem with free-market idealism. There is not an effective limit to the damage that can be done, but there are limits to liability. Many industries are capable of committing environmental destruction on large scales, but don't have any assets when the EPA comes around looking for restitution.
  - sp332 12y ago
    I don't see what the free market has to do with this. In a free market, or really any system that has property rights at all, you can't take or destroy someone's property without their permission. Edit: by "can't" I mean it's not allowed - it's a crime. Not that you physically can't.
    - rosser 12y ago
      Tell me again how property rights prevented this from happening.
      - sp332 12y ago
        The industry is already regulated, and companies are ignoring the regulations. This isn't even an approximation to a free market, let alone some ideal. Adding more regulations isn't going to help if they're not enforced.
        anigbrowl 12y ago
        But how are the companies ignoring the regulations here? It appears that state permits were granted to drill and use these injection wells ~25-30 years ago and that the owner/operators have been fully compliant with regulations - if anything, the failure in this case was a regulatory one, for granting permits that should not have been issued in the first place.
refurb 12y ago
I'd love to know who was responsible for this. The state seems to be taking the blame: "State officials allowed oil and gas companies to pump nearly three billion gallons of waste water into underground aquifers that could have been used for drinking water or irrigation." It looks like the company applied to drill the injection well and the state said "yeah, that's fine".
angersock 12y ago
The problem with the cost-cutting mindset is that it often allows for actions that seem really counter-intuitive. A friend of mine was spec'ing out some pumps for an off-shore platform, and they were rentals. Turned out renting was like thousands a day or some similarly absurd number. Company ended up renting like twice as many pumps, just in case they needed them for redundancy. It literally made more sense to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars for pumps that sat around and did nothing just to make damned-sure a multi-million dollar rig never sat idle. So, when we hear that there is too much complexity in, say, making sure nobody is drinking from wells within a mile of where the stuff is being injected, we look askance. O&G is full of money and talented engineers, so I doubt that this is a problem we can't overcome.
anigbrowl 12y ago
Who is it you think was cutting corners here? I mean, it's not good, but we seem to be talking about some wells that were incrrectly permitted back during the Reagan/Bush41 era. I didn't get the sense of anyone deliberately flouting regulations here.

by jdhawk 12y ago

sp332 12y ago

This probably isn't what you meant, but it sounds like you're saying that the industry is making the industry look bad.

codyb 12y ago
I think he's saying that the corner cutters which are part of the industry make the whole industry look bad.
- alexqgb 12y ago
  Except the industry as a whole makes itself look bad when it opposes the kind of (admittedly brutal) regulation that would terrify the corner-cutters out of existence. The degree of recklessness and criminality at the fringes of an industry is directly proportional to the contempt in which the public is held by those at the center. If the "leaders" are continually pushing the limits (e.g. BP), it's not surprising when the more marginal players overshoot them entirely. This is doubly true when the same "leaders" have spent more than a decade lavishly financing a public disinformation campaign (read: systematic lying) to downplay the environmental safety risks of their product, while twisting the arms of any elected officials who dare stand in their way. And remember, "standing in their way" goes beyond the imposition of effective health and safety regulations. It also includes efforts to curtail enormous public subsidies for what would remain an exceedingly profitable business with no subsidies at all. It's like a Gambino family shakedown run by people with the political clout of the U.S. military. It's true, stuff like the (potential) destruction of aquifers does make the industry as a whole look bad. But if the OP thinks this represents the extent of the PR problems faced by the oil and gas industries, he needs to start paying much closer attention to the political agenda of the business in which he makes a living. It's...not pretty. The best thing we could do with our oil and gas resources is to use the amount we can safely burn to make the massive infrastructure changes that a sustainably low-carbon economy will need, then write off the balance of the planet's known reserves, and peacefully and voluntary close up shop once the transition is complete.
  - saryant 12y ago
    Long before Deepwater, BP was known for its shoddy safety standards by the other supermajors. They were the butt of many jokes within the industry.
    - sp332 12y ago
      Definitely a case of the industry making itself look bad! The Minerals Management Service kept giving Transocean (who built the Deepwater Horizon rig) safety awards. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deepwater_Horizon_explosion#Transocean_safety_record https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deepwater_Horizon_explosion#Tr...
      - saryant 12y ago
        Note that BP wasn't allowed into the industry consortium responsible for deepwater drilling safety and monitoring—they aren't trusted by the rest of the industry.
      - fnordfnordfnord 12y ago
        Hyundai built the rig. It had been in use for almost a decade before the disaster. </Pedantry>

melling 12y ago

"We're sorry for any inconvenience and we regret..." Someone should have to pay for this. If the standard excuse is all you need, there's always going to be someone who is simply going to do the same thing.

thrownaway2424 12y ago
Right, that's the fundamental problem with free-market idealism. There is not an effective limit to the damage that can be done, but there are limits to liability. Many industries are capable of committing environmental destruction on large scales, but don't have any assets when the EPA comes around looking for restitution.
- sp332 12y ago
  I don't see what the free market has to do with this. In a free market, or really any system that has property rights at all, you can't take or destroy someone's property without their permission. Edit: by "can't" I mean it's not allowed - it's a crime. Not that you physically can't.
  - rosser 12y ago
    Tell me again how property rights prevented this from happening.
    - sp332 12y ago
      The industry is already regulated, and companies are ignoring the regulations. This isn't even an approximation to a free market, let alone some ideal. Adding more regulations isn't going to help if they're not enforced.
      - anigbrowl 12y ago
        But how are the companies ignoring the regulations here? It appears that state permits were granted to drill and use these injection wells ~25-30 years ago and that the owner/operators have been fully compliant with regulations - if anything, the failure in this case was a regulatory one, for granting permits that should not have been issued in the first place.

refurb 12y ago

I'd love to know who was responsible for this. The state seems to be taking the blame: "State officials allowed oil and gas companies to pump nearly three billion gallons of waste water into underground aquifers that could have been used for drinking water or irrigation." It looks like the company applied to drill the injection well and the state said "yeah, that's fine".

angersock 12y ago

The problem with the cost-cutting mindset is that it often allows for actions that seem really counter-intuitive. A friend of mine was spec'ing out some pumps for an off-shore platform, and they were rentals. Turned out renting was like thousands a day or some similarly absurd number. Company ended up renting like twice as many pumps, just in case they needed them for redundancy. It literally made more sense to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars for pumps that sat around and did nothing just to make damned-sure a multi-million dollar rig never sat idle. So, when we hear that there is too much complexity in, say, making sure nobody is drinking from wells within a mile of where the stuff is being injected, we look askance. O&G is full of money and talented engineers, so I doubt that this is a problem we can't overcome.

anigbrowl 12y ago

Who is it you think was cutting corners here? I mean, it's not good, but we seem to be talking about some wells that were incrrectly permitted back during the Reagan/Bush41 era. I didn't get the sense of anyone deliberately flouting regulations here.