4 ms·

Edsger Dijkstra - Discipline in Thought [video]

19 points by dood 19y ago

SirWart 19y ago
The part that intrigued me the most about the video was the contrast between Mozart's style of composing and Beethoven's. Web startups are a monument to the iterative style of composing, where the respectable way to test programs and businesses is to simply try them and see if the output is as expected. What sort of balance should we strike between hastily attempting every idea versus a more thoughtful approach? I do know that when I am impatient trying to solve problems, I tend to do more harm than good because my code often degenerates into an unmaintainable mess.
- koolmoe 19y ago
  I think there are certain aspects of Web startups that require iteration - it's not easy to figure out exactly what customers want on the first try. Even the customers might not (usually won't?) know until they've started to use your product. OTOH, there is no excuse for sloppy programming under the mantra of iterative development. Code is usually better when you've taken a little time to think about how to solve the problem at hand. I do think that Dijkstra's expectations are a bit lofty for the general population of programmers, though. For a large class of us, the biggest problem is just getting started. For me, it's a lot easier to get into flow by tinkering with some part of a program than to try to put the whole thing together in my mind. By the end, I usually have a large chunk of the app in my head. The expectation that every keystroke must be perfect from the outset would be enough to discourage me from even starting.
utnick 19y ago
thanks for posting this sadly, I didn't start at UT until a few years after he passed away. Must have been amazing to learn from this legend. All my professors had nothing but great things to say about him as a person and as a teacher.
- amichail 19y ago
  Do you actually agree with his formal methods approach?
hhm 19y ago
Can I upmod this twice please??! This video is absolutely fantastic. For a related link, check here: http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/ http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/
jsmcgd 19y ago
Evolution knows only iterative programming and it has produced not only elegance but an appreciation of it.
- Panoramix 19y ago
  It did took quite a few iterations though.

19 points by dood 19y ago

The part that intrigued me the most about the video was the contrast between Mozart's style of composing and Beethoven's. Web startups are a monument to the iterative style of composing, where the respectable way to test programs and businesses is to simply try them and see if the output is as expected. What sort of balance should we strike between hastily attempting every idea versus a more thoughtful approach? I do know that when I am impatient trying to solve problems, I tend to do more harm than good because my code often degenerates into an unmaintainable mess.

koolmoe 19y ago
I think there are certain aspects of Web startups that require iteration - it's not easy to figure out exactly what customers want on the first try. Even the customers might not (usually won't?) know until they've started to use your product. OTOH, there is no excuse for sloppy programming under the mantra of iterative development. Code is usually better when you've taken a little time to think about how to solve the problem at hand. I do think that Dijkstra's expectations are a bit lofty for the general population of programmers, though. For a large class of us, the biggest problem is just getting started. For me, it's a lot easier to get into flow by tinkering with some part of a program than to try to put the whole thing together in my mind. By the end, I usually have a large chunk of the app in my head. The expectation that every keystroke must be perfect from the outset would be enough to discourage me from even starting.

utnick 19y ago

thanks for posting this sadly, I didn't start at UT until a few years after he passed away. Must have been amazing to learn from this legend. All my professors had nothing but great things to say about him as a person and as a teacher.

amichail 19y ago
Do you actually agree with his formal methods approach?

hhm 19y ago

Can I upmod this twice please??! This video is absolutely fantastic. For a related link, check here: http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/ http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/

jsmcgd 19y ago

Evolution knows only iterative programming and it has produced not only elegance but an appreciation of it.

Panoramix 19y ago
It did took quite a few iterations though.