11 ms·

Resignation from the pkg-systemd maintainer team

195 points by deng 12y ago

pekk 12y ago
With the top voted post being "systemd haters have gone too far," I find it worth mentioning that there is no relation between approving of death threats and thinking a systemd monoculture is a bad idea. Death threats are wrong. Victims aren't to blame for death threats. On the other hand, that doesn't do anything to redeem systemd or dismiss criticism of systemd. Unfortunately, now the meme will be that critics of systemd are dangerous lunatics because of the death threats that most critics of systemd never made or approved of. This (and procedural irregularities, etc.) exemplify the ugly "total war" tone that was instrumental in pushing systemd through. The death threats are inexcusable. But the poor tone and bitter feelings have roots in what was done to get systemd where it is today. And if you are telling critics of systemd, who have nothing to do with death threats that "[they] are not welcome anymore in the community" - you are not contributing to the improvement of the tone. You are waging total war.
- jqm 12y ago
  Exactly. There are very valid arguments against systemd that have nothing to do with being a "hater".
  - cbd1984 12y ago
    OK. So, given those valid arguments against it, which distros don't use systemd right now? Because it seems that it would be really easy for a new distro to gain users by simply not using systemd, and staying with SysV init or similar.
    - uselessdguy 12y ago
      Slackware, Gentoo/Funtoo, CRUX, PCLinuxOS and all its derivatives. Then some more niche ones like Alpine Linux (which also eschews a lot of the GNU base system for alternatives) and Void Linux.
- tinco 12y ago
  I don't think that is true at this point. Books of criticisms on systemd have already been written. There isn't a maintainer out there who hasn't heard all of it. Yet many people still insist on bothering the community with this, it's become a burden. And it's not a burden because the criticisms are valid, it's a burden because the criticisms don't actually contribute anything. I think at this point it is safe to say that anyone voicing criticisms on systemd without contributing fixes or solutions to said problems is hostile to the Debian community, and should neither feel or be welcome. Feeling unwelcome is the only way these people will realise they will either have to solve the problem themselves, or start a new community.
  - wtbob 12y ago
    > I think at this point it is safe to say that anyone voicing criticisms on systemd without contributing fixes or solutions to said problems is hostile to the Debian community, and should neither feel or be welcome. What the heck? Those criticising systemd have a fix, and a solution (two, even!): either don't use it, or use it but don't rely on it.
general_failure 12y ago
It's ironic that his signature says "UNIX is user friendly, it's just picky about who its friends are".
ZenoArrow 12y ago
Has anyone got some background information on this?
- toyg 12y ago
  Systemd has always been very controversial.
  - bigiain 12y ago
    From tfheen on the Slashdot thread: "I don't agree with them (at least not fully), but my resignation from the maintainer team is not about people being skeptical, it's about personal attacks, it's about death wishes from project members and it's about people escalating conflicts instead of trying to resolve them." Seriously, people sending _death wishes_ to developer or maintainers of software who's decisions/directions they disagree with? They need to be publicly named so I can easily find that out when I Google them when their CV hits my desk. That's _so_ not OK. I would refuse to have those people on any team of mine - no matter how excellent your grades, no matter how lofty your achievements, your CV just gets thrown out, you won't even get a call back explaining why.
    - _Lemon_ 12y ago
      I agree but what happens if someone posts under someone else's name? It would probably be best not to perpetuate these things and to just end the vitriol now.
      - tfheen 12y ago
        Given they're active on the list in question and while the content crossed a line, the style was not out of character, nor was it later claimed to have been posted by somebody else, so I think we can rule this out.
        chroma 12y ago
        Why not publish the offending emails? As it is, those who threatened you face no repercussions. Their tactic worked, and they have every incentive to visit abuse upon others in the future. Edit: Thank you. I was under the impression that the emails were addressed specifically to you, not a mailing list.
andyjohnson0 12y ago
There is some discussion of this on Slashdot [1], with responses by Tollef Fog Heen. [1] http://linux.slashdot.org/story/14/11/16/2142244/longtime-debian-developer-tollef-fog-heen-resigns-from-systemd-maintainer-team http://linux.slashdot.org/story/14/11/16/2142244/longtime-de...
JoshTriplett 12y ago
So far, the last two TC decisions have been two-for-two in driving developers away; the previous one was the last straw that caused Joey Hess to leave.
- SwellJoe 12y ago
  The TC had nothing to do with this particular developer leaving, and it is disingenuous as hell to suggest it. He is leaving the systemd package maintenance team at Debian because of threats and personal attacks, despite supporting the team.
  - jey 12y ago
    Does TC == "technical committee"?
    - tfheen 12y ago
      Yes. (CTTE being another abbreviation)
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
ae0000 12y ago
Its hard without knowing the full context. But if it is as it appears, that some people from the debian community have been making attacks on a volunteer for doing their job, then it is absolutely disgusting behaviour. Those making such attacks would be best to leave debian and perhaps the internet.
Alupis 12y ago
It's time for this crap to stop. systemd haters have gone Too Far. Get over it. It's childish and pathetic now. Death threats to the creator. Personal attacks to volunteers. You have carried a debate into the extreme to where it is no longer noble. Just leave. Just stop. You are not welcome anymore in the community.
- NANDXORNOR 12y ago
  I don't have a horse in this race, but isn't it a good idea to as they say: 'don't give them a reason to hate you'. From what I've seen the good intentions behind systemd were marred by the fact that when it was announced the (mostly skeptical) responses to it were met by systemd supporters who held the attitude 'we're saving nix, join us or nix dies', and this has created the current atmosphere of debate. While these death threats and the like are in no doubt horrible, it seems that some bridges need to be built between the people who support systemd and those who do not, because the attitudes on both sides of the argument are rather poor, and this makes the open source community look even worse. Edit: I said nothing about systemd users currently making threats, rather that their attitude at the beginning of the project at some level caused the response that we see today. They are not completely to blame, as are not the people who are against systemd and do not send death threats. Regardless, it seems that recently, HN only supports the idea of 'there is no gray, only black and white'. People like these are the reason why the systemd creators cannot engage in debate, because on both sides the people who shout the loudest win out over the reasonable voices.
  - Alupis 12y ago
    I'm pretty certain that when someone actually tries to hire an assassin to murder the creator of a free software project simply because they disagree with said software project, things have gone way, way too far. People who support systemd are not launching personal attacks, calling for physical harm against non-systemd supporters. This is a unidirectional attack. And it needs to stop.
    - tedunangst 12y ago
belorn 12y ago
Online harassment is harsh to handle. Death threats, stalking, threat of physical violence, and I can only imagine the look if a male developer went to the police and said that it is all because software he is developing on his spare time and giving out for free.
- dsl 12y ago
  Why does his gender matter?
  - mschuster91 12y ago
    In interactions with the police gender and race always matters. Even in Germany, police can be a bunch of racist d.ckheads.
  - tfheen 12y ago
    Because I have loads more privilege than most, being white, male and from Norway.
    - kristofferR 12y ago
      Huh? The Norwegian police is still a police force (so they're naturally going to be slightly corrupt regarding the behavior of themselves/other police), and occasionally racist/evil - but they're actually pretty good compared to the police forces almost anywhere else in the world. I don't see how being a white male in Norway would impact your criminal complaint in any negative way AT ALL.
  - superuser2 12y ago
    Cops' lives (in a particularly uncharitable interpretation) revolve around reinforcing their own masculinity by winning fights and exerting dominance. Using that to protect damsels in distress from creepy male others/sexual predators is a highly masculinity-reinforcing, fatherly/brotherly and desirable thing to do. An effiminate man (using the again uncharitable notion that nerds with desk jobs are not manly in the eyes of police officers) walking into the station and asking for protection from other effiminate men is more likely to be seen as a pathetic whiner.
idle_processor 12y ago
Title slightly misleading. > I am not resigning from Debian, just from the systemd maintainer team. Source: tfheen@ http://linux.slashdot.org/story/14/11/16/2142244/longtime-debian-developer-tollef-fog-heen-resigns-from-systemd-maintainer-team http://linux.slashdot.org/story/14/11/16/2142244/longtime-de...
deng 12y ago
More information from Tollef Fog Heen: http://err.no/personal/blog/tech/Debian/2014-11-16-23-55_resigning_from_pkg-systemd http://err.no/personal/blog/tech/Debian/2014-11-16-23-55_res...
abhididdigi 12y ago
http://err.no/personal/blog/ http://err.no/personal/blog/ For folks looking for more detail.
codemonkeymike 12y ago
Makes me want to go into OSS development...
uselessdguy 12y ago
I completely condemn such nonsense as a bunch of vitriolic people driving a distribution maintainer away from their position all because of their indirect affiliation with a controversial project. Such actions are why I identify with neither the systemd opponents nor the proponents. Unfortunately, it does dilute arguments against systemd, because of immediate associations with fools who attack people and scream fallacies (even though the non-systemd camp is an amorphous blob more than anything). This in turn gives moral high ground to the proponents and any attempt at debate devolves into the same dead ends and non-arguments between equally clueless factions. Yet as much as the entire display is abominable, it is sadly also completely predictable. For all the good things the systemd crew have done, their ideas are disruptive, in that they're trying to mold a cathedral out of what has been a rather adamantly bazaar-based community for over two decades now. Contrary to popular belief, simply developing your tools in one repository doesn't magically make you "more like the BSDs" - there's far more to the BSDs than that, and every time I see someone make that argument, I twitch. We're in the midst of an unprecedented schism. But, for what it's worth, this isn't an issue with "open source". No, it's an issue with the Linux community in particular. It is particularly dysfunctional. I have no idea why Linux attracts so much drama and carnage amongst its constituents, but it does. I'm pretty disappointed in all sides here. The people who attack systemd and its developers on completely false premises, and the people who are convinced it's the be all and the end all, and have been living under a sysvinit-based rock their entire lives. It's just so exhausting. It really is. I don't know how this will end. But the irony is intense: an attempt at distro unification has led to a big divide. The best thing we can hope for is people doing a bunch of new experimentation in Unix process management. Projects like Epoch and nosh are up and coming. Hopefully we'll see more.
- Stratoscope 12y ago
  > I have no idea why Linux attracts so much drama and carnage amongst its constituents, but it does. It starts right from the top, just like the similar situation in the Rails community. When your founder and leader behaves a certain way, it gives everyone in the community license to act like that. Edit: I seem to have touched a nerve here. My apology to anyone my comment offended. Nonetheless, I stand by the idea that the culture of a company or open source is heavily influenced by the behavior of those at the top. How could it not be? As an example of the other end of the spectrum, when I worked at Adobe it was a remarkably courteous place where people treated each other with respect even when they disagreed. I really appreciated that, and I think a good part of it came directly from Adobe founders John Warnock and Chuck Geschke.
BuckRogers 12y ago
Maybe Microsoft wasn't so bad afterall?
nsxwolf 12y ago
This is a pretty hilarious nerd fight. Unlike GamerGate this has no relevance to anyone outside this little bubble and really sounds insane. Init daemons, people!
- thisGuysAccount 12y ago
  I've been thinking about pasting this news into my Facebook. Three times, erased each time. "Guy gets multiple death threats because of the program he wants to start his computer is different from another program other people want to start their computers." This isn't a hilarious nerd fight. This is some really misguided people who don't know how to communicate.
  - wtbob 12y ago
    No, it's more, 'guy gets multiple death threats[1] because he wishes to make it immensely more difficult for other people to use the program they want to start their computers, and also worsen the stability of the computers of those who use his preferred program.' [1] Has he gotten death threats, or simply death wishes? There's a big difference between threatening someone's life and, believing him to be a net-negative to the world, being pleased when he dies.
    - thisGuysAccount 12y ago
      Death threats, death wishes... it's over an init daemon on a software project. I can't imagine "Someone wants to paint the front door RED?! They should die." happening under any circumstances. It's concerning to me, on many levels, that this is happening over systemd, regardless of the technical benefits or issues.
empressplay 12y ago
It should be obvious to anyone that RedHat has a vested interest in making the vast majority of Linux distributions dependent on technology it controls. Linux is its bread-and-butter. It appears RedHat has realised that, through systemd, it can readily provide preferential support for its own projects, and place roadblocks up for projects it does not control, thus extending its influence broadly and quickly. By using tenuous dependencies amongst its own projects it can speed adoption even faster. Once it has significant influence, and the maintainers of competing projects have drifted away either out of frustration or because they are starved of oxygen, RedHat knows that they can effectively take Linux closed-source by restricting access to documentation and fighting changes that are not in their own best interests. At this point, they can market themselves as the only rational choice for corporate Linux support -- and this would be perfectly reasonable because they would have effective control of the ecosystem. Linux (as in a full OS implementation) is an extremely complex beast and you can't just "fork it" and start your own 'distro' from scratch anymore -- you would have to leverage a small army to do it, then keep that army to maintain it. It's just not practical. At the same time, Linux has matured to the point of attaining some measure of corporate credibility, and from RedHat's point of view, it no longer needs its 'open source' roots to remain viable. RedHat also, understandably, fears potential competition. Through systemd and subsequent takeovers of other ecosystem components, RedHat can leverage its own position while stifling potential competition -- this is a best-case scenario for any corporation. It will have an advantage in the marketplace, potential customers will recognise that advantage, and buy its products and support contracts. I hope you can understand why many see this as an extremely compelling case. Arguing that RedHat has 'ethics' and would 'never do such a thing' is immature and silly -- RedHat is a corporation, it exists to profit from its opportunities, just like any other company. To attempt to argue that it would not do so is contrary to what we can assume is its default state. It's no 'conspiracy theory' to assume that a corporation will behave like a corporation; arguing that it is just makes one look like a naive child. systemd is one large step toward RedHat gaining the ability to reap what it has sewn -- for its benefit and not necessarily ours.
- mtanski 12y ago
  A couple points about RedHat: First, it develops almost everything out in the open. That includes developers communicating with their coworkers through public mailing lists for those projects. Sometimes those are hosted by Redhat but most often they are hosed by other projects governance (free desktop, kernel, openjdk). When it comes to those projects employees end up communicating on the list instead of internal or in person to make sure everybody has access to the communication. Most OSS ran by companies loved here on HN (Google, Fb, etc) has development happen on internal lists with occasional code dumps. Second, for almost all projects started by Redhat employees do not require copy right assignment. Yes, I know Fedora has something for their project but that seams to be an exception. No copyright assignment on systemd or many gnome sub-projects they started. Compare that again to OSS from Google, FB and even Ubuntu (upstart requires copy right assignment). Third, and contrary to what you just said... YES YOU CAN FORK IT. It happens all the time. People build one person distros all the time (or obscure distros with a small group of volunteers). Hell, somebody even forked systemd (new project: useslessd) to remove things he considers bad. So, in conclusion, what you call a compelling case is nothing more then argument on thin ice... at least in my eyes given the evidence. Technically they can exert control over the projects if they employ the maintainer. But, given the facts they not setup in a position to exploit it and given the current status quo we should see it coming. I'm not affiliated with Redhat; I don't run Redhat; I know some people who work / worked at Redhat in past.
cwyers 12y ago
It seems like this was only the first domino to fall. Russ Allbery is resigning from the Technical Committee: https://lists.debian.org/debian-ctte/2014/11/msg00071.html https://lists.debian.org/debian-ctte/2014/11/msg00071.html Russ was, to my mind, a voice of reason through this entire process. Losing him is a bad, bad sign.
- uselessdguy 12y ago
  That's three Debian maintainers in a single week. Wow.
  - infinity0 12y ago
    To be clear, only Joey Hess actually left Debian. The other two only left particular positions within Debian, but are staying on with other positions.
CoachRufus87 12y ago
A bit of background on his resignation: http://err.no/personal/blog/tech/Debian/2014-11-16-23-55_resigning_from_pkg-systemd http://err.no/personal/blog/tech/Debian/2014-11-16-23-55_res...
- asveikau 12y ago
  > flares where people wish people involved in systemd would be run over by a bus or just accusations of incompetence. Wow, these are really contrasting examples. This HN thread is really focusing on the first category but I who haven't been following any of this actually had the impression that the 2nd category (incompetence) was right on the money regarding the recent bugs I've seen in my Debian installation. I've used Debian since 2000 or so (slink was the first release I installed). I don't know if this problem is Debian or upstream. But ever since systemd became the default, my machine displays "Segmentation fault" at every boot, boots slower than before, and my previously working bluetooth pairings broke. Even when Debian was inserting extra memset()s into OpenSSL, I've never seen it this bad. It really doesn't feel like the system it used to be and I'm about to give up on it.
  - cwyers 12y ago
    Can you context this up for us? Are you running the unstable testing branch and complaining about bugs? (If so, have you filed these bugs with anyone?) Or has your Debian system somehow gotten more buggy since they announced that systemd would be the default init system of the version of Debian that ISN'T OUT YET?
    - asveikau 12y ago
      > Are you running the unstable testing branch and complaining about bugs? Yeah I'm running testing. I have been running either testing or unstable on personal machines on a rolling basis since slink (released 1999) and I have experienced breakage of various sorts over the years, but nothing as fucked up as when the switch to systemd happened. > (If so, have you filed these bugs with anyone?) Sorry I don't have a lot of time for this. Usually when I have seen really bad issues running sid I just wait for them to get resolved after the next dist-upgrade or two. And that usually works well enough. Not this time though.
exabrial 12y ago
Unfortunately, it's being accepted that harassment is a valid form of protest. Example: Mozilla CEO and OkCupid.
- jessaustin 12y ago
  Yeah, but that was different, because good people don't like those guys and/or their opinions.
lamontcg 12y ago
Seems that Godwin's Law needs to be updated for 2014. As online discussion grows longer, the probability of doxxing and death threats approaches 1. And the standard corollary is the side which doxxes and issues death threats first automatically loses the argument.
- digi_owl 12y ago
  And it is quite likely that those that do them have no vested interest in the topic, but are in it "for the lulz".
cwyers 12y ago
Upon reflection, I don't think this is a systemd problem -- which is to say, many other distros (not even ones sponsored by Red Hat -- Arch, SuSE, Mageia, NixOS, etc.) have managed to switch to systemd as a default without this kind of a fuss. It's only Debian where this kind of a shitstorm has kicked off -- even Gentoo, which has been a rather vocal systemd holdout, offers systemd and doesn't seem to have this kind of political infighting about it. Now, yes, Debian and its downstreams have a large part of the Linux userbase, so there's apt to be more attention paid to it. But I'm starting to think this is a Debian problem, not a systemd problem. And the reason I think that is because this isn't a question of whether or not people do or don't use systemd. It's a question of who is going to do the work to ensure that people who choose not to use systemd can continue to use popular packages like GNOME, etc. And to this end, Ian Jackson is leading a vocal group that is willing to use ANY means at hand -- the Technical Committee, General Resolutions, whatever -- in order to cudgel Debian package maintainers and upstream software into doing the work that they think needs to be done in order to support their desire not to use systemd. The problem in a volunteer project like Debian, forcing volunteers to do work they don't want to doesn't lead to the volunteers doing the work you insist they should do, it leads to volunteers leaving. And the upstreams are not going to respond to Jackson's quite frankly childish attempts to bully them into continuing to support sysvinit from now until the end of time. And until Jackson and his backers step into the breach to actually write freaking code to do what they want to instead of politicking to try and force others to write they code they want, it's going to continue to drag the Debian project into this kind of a mess.
- Slackwise 12y ago
  > even Gentoo, which has been a rather vocal systemd holdout, offers systemd and doesn't seem to have this kind of political infighting about it. One of Gentoo's fundamental goals is to provide the users with as much choice as possible. So far, they managed to get Systemd as an alternative to OpenRC. The major part of their issue with Systemd earlier was udev's dependency on Systemd, which made a lot of typical things messier. Once that got sorted, things are moving forward. Gentoo just wants to be a 'meta-distribution' so you can make your own customized system, and Systemd dependencies being added everywhere were detrimental to that effort.
- 12y ago
balabaster 12y ago
I don't really know any of the back story of this guy, but having been on the receiving end of similar poor behaviour myself, it's easy to see why he would be walking away. This malicious behaviour is not okay out of anyone - leader or follower. When I was a kid, my parents asked me to consider the position: If my friend told me to stick my finger in the fire, would I? For those that shrug and blame it on Linus, I ask you also to consider that position; you're not 4, you're capable of critical thought. Stop being a dick and blaming it on others. You being a dick is on you, period. I don't care if this is the example set by Linus himself - just because he does that, does not grant you leave to behave that way too. If he acts that way, I will consider him a dick. If you do that, I consider you a dick. I don't look at you, shrug my shoulders and say "Hey, I don't blame you, I blame Linus for setting a bad example." I judge him for his behaviour and for acting that way while being in a position of influence. I judge you for bad behaviour as well as bad judgment for considering that you can blame someone else for your own bad behaviour. If you're working in a community that has garnered a reputation for poor behaviour because of its leaders and/or constituents, don't become that, you're better than that. If your leaders are like that, don't be scared to call them out. Bad behaviour is bad behaviour, I don't care who it's from. Respect garners respect. If you're a dick to people, you don't deserve respect. It's okay to hold people accountable, it's okay to hold them to high standards, but stop being a dick. That's not okay.
SFjulie1 12y ago
/. is still a little bit useful http://linux.slashdot.org/story/14/11/16/2142244/longtime-debian-developer-tollef-fog-heen-resigns-from-systemd-maintainer-team http://linux.slashdot.org/story/14/11/16/2142244/longtime-de...

195 points by deng 12y ago

pekk 12y ago

With the top voted post being "systemd haters have gone too far," I find it worth mentioning that there is no relation between approving of death threats and thinking a systemd monoculture is a bad idea. Death threats are wrong. Victims aren't to blame for death threats. On the other hand, that doesn't do anything to redeem systemd or dismiss criticism of systemd. Unfortunately, now the meme will be that critics of systemd are dangerous lunatics because of the death threats that most critics of systemd never made or approved of. This (and procedural irregularities, etc.) exemplify the ugly "total war" tone that was instrumental in pushing systemd through. The death threats are inexcusable. But the poor tone and bitter feelings have roots in what was done to get systemd where it is today. And if you are telling critics of systemd, who have nothing to do with death threats that "[they] are not welcome anymore in the community" - you are not contributing to the improvement of the tone. You are waging total war.

jqm 12y ago
Exactly. There are very valid arguments against systemd that have nothing to do with being a "hater".
- cbd1984 12y ago
  OK. So, given those valid arguments against it, which distros don't use systemd right now? Because it seems that it would be really easy for a new distro to gain users by simply not using systemd, and staying with SysV init or similar.
  - uselessdguy 12y ago
    Slackware, Gentoo/Funtoo, CRUX, PCLinuxOS and all its derivatives. Then some more niche ones like Alpine Linux (which also eschews a lot of the GNU base system for alternatives) and Void Linux.
tinco 12y ago
I don't think that is true at this point. Books of criticisms on systemd have already been written. There isn't a maintainer out there who hasn't heard all of it. Yet many people still insist on bothering the community with this, it's become a burden. And it's not a burden because the criticisms are valid, it's a burden because the criticisms don't actually contribute anything. I think at this point it is safe to say that anyone voicing criticisms on systemd without contributing fixes or solutions to said problems is hostile to the Debian community, and should neither feel or be welcome. Feeling unwelcome is the only way these people will realise they will either have to solve the problem themselves, or start a new community.
- wtbob 12y ago
  > I think at this point it is safe to say that anyone voicing criticisms on systemd without contributing fixes or solutions to said problems is hostile to the Debian community, and should neither feel or be welcome. What the heck? Those criticising systemd have a fix, and a solution (two, even!): either don't use it, or use it but don't rely on it.

general_failure 12y ago

It's ironic that his signature says "UNIX is user friendly, it's just picky about who its friends are".

ZenoArrow 12y ago

Has anyone got some background information on this?

toyg 12y ago
Systemd has always been very controversial.
- bigiain 12y ago
  From tfheen on the Slashdot thread: "I don't agree with them (at least not fully), but my resignation from the maintainer team is not about people being skeptical, it's about personal attacks, it's about death wishes from project members and it's about people escalating conflicts instead of trying to resolve them." Seriously, people sending _death wishes_ to developer or maintainers of software who's decisions/directions they disagree with? They need to be publicly named so I can easily find that out when I Google them when their CV hits my desk. That's _so_ not OK. I would refuse to have those people on any team of mine - no matter how excellent your grades, no matter how lofty your achievements, your CV just gets thrown out, you won't even get a call back explaining why.
  - _Lemon_ 12y ago
    I agree but what happens if someone posts under someone else's name? It would probably be best not to perpetuate these things and to just end the vitriol now.
    - tfheen 12y ago
      Given they're active on the list in question and while the content crossed a line, the style was not out of character, nor was it later claimed to have been posted by somebody else, so I think we can rule this out.
      - chroma 12y ago
        Why not publish the offending emails? As it is, those who threatened you face no repercussions. Their tactic worked, and they have every incentive to visit abuse upon others in the future. Edit: Thank you. I was under the impression that the emails were addressed specifically to you, not a mailing list.

andyjohnson0 12y ago

There is some discussion of this on Slashdot [1], with responses by Tollef Fog Heen. [1] http://linux.slashdot.org/story/14/11/16/2142244/longtime-debian-developer-tollef-fog-heen-resigns-from-systemd-maintainer-team http://linux.slashdot.org/story/14/11/16/2142244/longtime-de...

JoshTriplett 12y ago

So far, the last two TC decisions have been two-for-two in driving developers away; the previous one was the last straw that caused Joey Hess to leave.

SwellJoe 12y ago
The TC had nothing to do with this particular developer leaving, and it is disingenuous as hell to suggest it. He is leaving the systemd package maintenance team at Debian because of threats and personal attacks, despite supporting the team.
- jey 12y ago
  Does TC == "technical committee"?
  - tfheen 12y ago
    Yes. (CTTE being another abbreviation)
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]

ae0000 12y ago

Its hard without knowing the full context. But if it is as it appears, that some people from the debian community have been making attacks on a volunteer for doing their job, then it is absolutely disgusting behaviour. Those making such attacks would be best to leave debian and perhaps the internet.

Alupis 12y ago

It's time for this crap to stop. systemd haters have gone Too Far. Get over it. It's childish and pathetic now. Death threats to the creator. Personal attacks to volunteers. You have carried a debate into the extreme to where it is no longer noble. Just leave. Just stop. You are not welcome anymore in the community.

NANDXORNOR 12y ago
I don't have a horse in this race, but isn't it a good idea to as they say: 'don't give them a reason to hate you'. From what I've seen the good intentions behind systemd were marred by the fact that when it was announced the (mostly skeptical) responses to it were met by systemd supporters who held the attitude 'we're saving nix, join us or nix dies', and this has created the current atmosphere of debate. While these death threats and the like are in no doubt horrible, it seems that some bridges need to be built between the people who support systemd and those who do not, because the attitudes on both sides of the argument are rather poor, and this makes the open source community look even worse. Edit: I said nothing about systemd users currently making threats, rather that their attitude at the beginning of the project at some level caused the response that we see today. They are not completely to blame, as are not the people who are against systemd and do not send death threats. Regardless, it seems that recently, HN only supports the idea of 'there is no gray, only black and white'. People like these are the reason why the systemd creators cannot engage in debate, because on both sides the people who shout the loudest win out over the reasonable voices.
- Alupis 12y ago
  I'm pretty certain that when someone actually tries to hire an assassin to murder the creator of a free software project simply because they disagree with said software project, things have gone way, way too far. People who support systemd are not launching personal attacks, calling for physical harm against non-systemd supporters. This is a unidirectional attack. And it needs to stop.
  - tedunangst 12y ago

belorn 12y ago

Online harassment is harsh to handle. Death threats, stalking, threat of physical violence, and I can only imagine the look if a male developer went to the police and said that it is all because software he is developing on his spare time and giving out for free.

dsl 12y ago
Why does his gender matter?
- mschuster91 12y ago
  In interactions with the police gender and race always matters. Even in Germany, police can be a bunch of racist d.ckheads.
- tfheen 12y ago
  Because I have loads more privilege than most, being white, male and from Norway.
  - kristofferR 12y ago
    Huh? The Norwegian police is still a police force (so they're naturally going to be slightly corrupt regarding the behavior of themselves/other police), and occasionally racist/evil - but they're actually pretty good compared to the police forces almost anywhere else in the world. I don't see how being a white male in Norway would impact your criminal complaint in any negative way AT ALL.
- superuser2 12y ago
  Cops' lives (in a particularly uncharitable interpretation) revolve around reinforcing their own masculinity by winning fights and exerting dominance. Using that to protect damsels in distress from creepy male others/sexual predators is a highly masculinity-reinforcing, fatherly/brotherly and desirable thing to do. An effiminate man (using the again uncharitable notion that nerds with desk jobs are not manly in the eyes of police officers) walking into the station and asking for protection from other effiminate men is more likely to be seen as a pathetic whiner.

idle_processor 12y ago

Title slightly misleading. > I am not resigning from Debian, just from the systemd maintainer team. Source: tfheen@ http://linux.slashdot.org/story/14/11/16/2142244/longtime-debian-developer-tollef-fog-heen-resigns-from-systemd-maintainer-team http://linux.slashdot.org/story/14/11/16/2142244/longtime-de...

deng 12y ago

More information from Tollef Fog Heen: http://err.no/personal/blog/tech/Debian/2014-11-16-23-55_resigning_from_pkg-systemd http://err.no/personal/blog/tech/Debian/2014-11-16-23-55_res...

abhididdigi 12y ago

http://err.no/personal/blog/ http://err.no/personal/blog/ For folks looking for more detail.

codemonkeymike 12y ago

Makes me want to go into OSS development...

uselessdguy 12y ago

I completely condemn such nonsense as a bunch of vitriolic people driving a distribution maintainer away from their position all because of their indirect affiliation with a controversial project. Such actions are why I identify with neither the systemd opponents nor the proponents. Unfortunately, it does dilute arguments against systemd, because of immediate associations with fools who attack people and scream fallacies (even though the non-systemd camp is an amorphous blob more than anything). This in turn gives moral high ground to the proponents and any attempt at debate devolves into the same dead ends and non-arguments between equally clueless factions. Yet as much as the entire display is abominable, it is sadly also completely predictable. For all the good things the systemd crew have done, their ideas are disruptive, in that they're trying to mold a cathedral out of what has been a rather adamantly bazaar-based community for over two decades now. Contrary to popular belief, simply developing your tools in one repository doesn't magically make you "more like the BSDs" - there's far more to the BSDs than that, and every time I see someone make that argument, I twitch. We're in the midst of an unprecedented schism. But, for what it's worth, this isn't an issue with "open source". No, it's an issue with the Linux community in particular. It is particularly dysfunctional. I have no idea why Linux attracts so much drama and carnage amongst its constituents, but it does. I'm pretty disappointed in all sides here. The people who attack systemd and its developers on completely false premises, and the people who are convinced it's the be all and the end all, and have been living under a sysvinit-based rock their entire lives. It's just so exhausting. It really is. I don't know how this will end. But the irony is intense: an attempt at distro unification has led to a big divide. The best thing we can hope for is people doing a bunch of new experimentation in Unix process management. Projects like Epoch and nosh are up and coming. Hopefully we'll see more.

Stratoscope 12y ago
> I have no idea why Linux attracts so much drama and carnage amongst its constituents, but it does. It starts right from the top, just like the similar situation in the Rails community. When your founder and leader behaves a certain way, it gives everyone in the community license to act like that. Edit: I seem to have touched a nerve here. My apology to anyone my comment offended. Nonetheless, I stand by the idea that the culture of a company or open source is heavily influenced by the behavior of those at the top. How could it not be? As an example of the other end of the spectrum, when I worked at Adobe it was a remarkably courteous place where people treated each other with respect even when they disagreed. I really appreciated that, and I think a good part of it came directly from Adobe founders John Warnock and Chuck Geschke.

BuckRogers 12y ago

Maybe Microsoft wasn't so bad afterall?

nsxwolf 12y ago

This is a pretty hilarious nerd fight. Unlike GamerGate this has no relevance to anyone outside this little bubble and really sounds insane. Init daemons, people!

thisGuysAccount 12y ago
I've been thinking about pasting this news into my Facebook. Three times, erased each time. "Guy gets multiple death threats because of the program he wants to start his computer is different from another program other people want to start their computers." This isn't a hilarious nerd fight. This is some really misguided people who don't know how to communicate.
- wtbob 12y ago
  No, it's more, 'guy gets multiple death threats[1] because he wishes to make it immensely more difficult for other people to use the program they want to start their computers, and also worsen the stability of the computers of those who use his preferred program.' [1] Has he gotten death threats, or simply death wishes? There's a big difference between threatening someone's life and, believing him to be a net-negative to the world, being pleased when he dies.
  - thisGuysAccount 12y ago
    Death threats, death wishes... it's over an init daemon on a software project. I can't imagine "Someone wants to paint the front door RED?! They should die." happening under any circumstances. It's concerning to me, on many levels, that this is happening over systemd, regardless of the technical benefits or issues.

empressplay 12y ago

It should be obvious to anyone that RedHat has a vested interest in making the vast majority of Linux distributions dependent on technology it controls. Linux is its bread-and-butter. It appears RedHat has realised that, through systemd, it can readily provide preferential support for its own projects, and place roadblocks up for projects it does not control, thus extending its influence broadly and quickly. By using tenuous dependencies amongst its own projects it can speed adoption even faster. Once it has significant influence, and the maintainers of competing projects have drifted away either out of frustration or because they are starved of oxygen, RedHat knows that they can effectively take Linux closed-source by restricting access to documentation and fighting changes that are not in their own best interests. At this point, they can market themselves as the only rational choice for corporate Linux support -- and this would be perfectly reasonable because they would have effective control of the ecosystem. Linux (as in a full OS implementation) is an extremely complex beast and you can't just "fork it" and start your own 'distro' from scratch anymore -- you would have to leverage a small army to do it, then keep that army to maintain it. It's just not practical. At the same time, Linux has matured to the point of attaining some measure of corporate credibility, and from RedHat's point of view, it no longer needs its 'open source' roots to remain viable. RedHat also, understandably, fears potential competition. Through systemd and subsequent takeovers of other ecosystem components, RedHat can leverage its own position while stifling potential competition -- this is a best-case scenario for any corporation. It will have an advantage in the marketplace, potential customers will recognise that advantage, and buy its products and support contracts. I hope you can understand why many see this as an extremely compelling case. Arguing that RedHat has 'ethics' and would 'never do such a thing' is immature and silly -- RedHat is a corporation, it exists to profit from its opportunities, just like any other company. To attempt to argue that it would not do so is contrary to what we can assume is its default state. It's no 'conspiracy theory' to assume that a corporation will behave like a corporation; arguing that it is just makes one look like a naive child. systemd is one large step toward RedHat gaining the ability to reap what it has sewn -- for its benefit and not necessarily ours.

mtanski 12y ago
A couple points about RedHat: First, it develops almost everything out in the open. That includes developers communicating with their coworkers through public mailing lists for those projects. Sometimes those are hosted by Redhat but most often they are hosed by other projects governance (free desktop, kernel, openjdk). When it comes to those projects employees end up communicating on the list instead of internal or in person to make sure everybody has access to the communication. Most OSS ran by companies loved here on HN (Google, Fb, etc) has development happen on internal lists with occasional code dumps. Second, for almost all projects started by Redhat employees do not require copy right assignment. Yes, I know Fedora has something for their project but that seams to be an exception. No copyright assignment on systemd or many gnome sub-projects they started. Compare that again to OSS from Google, FB and even Ubuntu (upstart requires copy right assignment). Third, and contrary to what you just said... YES YOU CAN FORK IT. It happens all the time. People build one person distros all the time (or obscure distros with a small group of volunteers). Hell, somebody even forked systemd (new project: useslessd) to remove things he considers bad. So, in conclusion, what you call a compelling case is nothing more then argument on thin ice... at least in my eyes given the evidence. Technically they can exert control over the projects if they employ the maintainer. But, given the facts they not setup in a position to exploit it and given the current status quo we should see it coming. I'm not affiliated with Redhat; I don't run Redhat; I know some people who work / worked at Redhat in past.

cwyers 12y ago

It seems like this was only the first domino to fall. Russ Allbery is resigning from the Technical Committee: https://lists.debian.org/debian-ctte/2014/11/msg00071.html https://lists.debian.org/debian-ctte/2014/11/msg00071.html Russ was, to my mind, a voice of reason through this entire process. Losing him is a bad, bad sign.

uselessdguy 12y ago
That's three Debian maintainers in a single week. Wow.
- infinity0 12y ago
  To be clear, only Joey Hess actually left Debian. The other two only left particular positions within Debian, but are staying on with other positions.

CoachRufus87 12y ago

A bit of background on his resignation: http://err.no/personal/blog/tech/Debian/2014-11-16-23-55_resigning_from_pkg-systemd http://err.no/personal/blog/tech/Debian/2014-11-16-23-55_res...

asveikau 12y ago
> flares where people wish people involved in systemd would be run over by a bus or just accusations of incompetence. Wow, these are really contrasting examples. This HN thread is really focusing on the first category but I who haven't been following any of this actually had the impression that the 2nd category (incompetence) was right on the money regarding the recent bugs I've seen in my Debian installation. I've used Debian since 2000 or so (slink was the first release I installed). I don't know if this problem is Debian or upstream. But ever since systemd became the default, my machine displays "Segmentation fault" at every boot, boots slower than before, and my previously working bluetooth pairings broke. Even when Debian was inserting extra memset()s into OpenSSL, I've never seen it this bad. It really doesn't feel like the system it used to be and I'm about to give up on it.
- cwyers 12y ago
  Can you context this up for us? Are you running the unstable testing branch and complaining about bugs? (If so, have you filed these bugs with anyone?) Or has your Debian system somehow gotten more buggy since they announced that systemd would be the default init system of the version of Debian that ISN'T OUT YET?
  - asveikau 12y ago
    > Are you running the unstable testing branch and complaining about bugs? Yeah I'm running testing. I have been running either testing or unstable on personal machines on a rolling basis since slink (released 1999) and I have experienced breakage of various sorts over the years, but nothing as fucked up as when the switch to systemd happened. > (If so, have you filed these bugs with anyone?) Sorry I don't have a lot of time for this. Usually when I have seen really bad issues running sid I just wait for them to get resolved after the next dist-upgrade or two. And that usually works well enough. Not this time though.

exabrial 12y ago

Unfortunately, it's being accepted that harassment is a valid form of protest. Example: Mozilla CEO and OkCupid.

jessaustin 12y ago
Yeah, but that was different, because good people don't like those guys and/or their opinions.

lamontcg 12y ago

Seems that Godwin's Law needs to be updated for 2014. As online discussion grows longer, the probability of doxxing and death threats approaches 1. And the standard corollary is the side which doxxes and issues death threats first automatically loses the argument.

digi_owl 12y ago
And it is quite likely that those that do them have no vested interest in the topic, but are in it "for the lulz".

cwyers 12y ago

Upon reflection, I don't think this is a systemd problem -- which is to say, many other distros (not even ones sponsored by Red Hat -- Arch, SuSE, Mageia, NixOS, etc.) have managed to switch to systemd as a default without this kind of a fuss. It's only Debian where this kind of a shitstorm has kicked off -- even Gentoo, which has been a rather vocal systemd holdout, offers systemd and doesn't seem to have this kind of political infighting about it. Now, yes, Debian and its downstreams have a large part of the Linux userbase, so there's apt to be more attention paid to it. But I'm starting to think this is a Debian problem, not a systemd problem. And the reason I think that is because this isn't a question of whether or not people do or don't use systemd. It's a question of who is going to do the work to ensure that people who choose not to use systemd can continue to use popular packages like GNOME, etc. And to this end, Ian Jackson is leading a vocal group that is willing to use ANY means at hand -- the Technical Committee, General Resolutions, whatever -- in order to cudgel Debian package maintainers and upstream software into doing the work that they think needs to be done in order to support their desire not to use systemd. The problem in a volunteer project like Debian, forcing volunteers to do work they don't want to doesn't lead to the volunteers doing the work you insist they should do, it leads to volunteers leaving. And the upstreams are not going to respond to Jackson's quite frankly childish attempts to bully them into continuing to support sysvinit from now until the end of time. And until Jackson and his backers step into the breach to actually write freaking code to do what they want to instead of politicking to try and force others to write they code they want, it's going to continue to drag the Debian project into this kind of a mess.

Slackwise 12y ago
> even Gentoo, which has been a rather vocal systemd holdout, offers systemd and doesn't seem to have this kind of political infighting about it. One of Gentoo's fundamental goals is to provide the users with as much choice as possible. So far, they managed to get Systemd as an alternative to OpenRC. The major part of their issue with Systemd earlier was udev's dependency on Systemd, which made a lot of typical things messier. Once that got sorted, things are moving forward. Gentoo just wants to be a 'meta-distribution' so you can make your own customized system, and Systemd dependencies being added everywhere were detrimental to that effort.
12y ago

balabaster 12y ago

I don't really know any of the back story of this guy, but having been on the receiving end of similar poor behaviour myself, it's easy to see why he would be walking away. This malicious behaviour is not okay out of anyone - leader or follower. When I was a kid, my parents asked me to consider the position: If my friend told me to stick my finger in the fire, would I? For those that shrug and blame it on Linus, I ask you also to consider that position; you're not 4, you're capable of critical thought. Stop being a dick and blaming it on others. You being a dick is on you, period. I don't care if this is the example set by Linus himself - just because he does that, does not grant you leave to behave that way too. If he acts that way, I will consider him a dick. If you do that, I consider you a dick. I don't look at you, shrug my shoulders and say "Hey, I don't blame you, I blame Linus for setting a bad example." I judge him for his behaviour and for acting that way while being in a position of influence. I judge you for bad behaviour as well as bad judgment for considering that you can blame someone else for your own bad behaviour. If you're working in a community that has garnered a reputation for poor behaviour because of its leaders and/or constituents, don't become that, you're better than that. If your leaders are like that, don't be scared to call them out. Bad behaviour is bad behaviour, I don't care who it's from. Respect garners respect. If you're a dick to people, you don't deserve respect. It's okay to hold people accountable, it's okay to hold them to high standards, but stop being a dick. That's not okay.

SFjulie1 12y ago

/. is still a little bit useful http://linux.slashdot.org/story/14/11/16/2142244/longtime-debian-developer-tollef-fog-heen-resigns-from-systemd-maintainer-team http://linux.slashdot.org/story/14/11/16/2142244/longtime-de...