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"That, in a word, is bullshit. I will accept "all humans have intrinsic value" as one way of stating a basic human-rights assumption. But otherwise, value is al

"That, in a word, is bullshit. I will accept "all humans have intrinsic value" as one way of stating a basic human-rights assumption. But otherwise, value is always rooted in whom the object is valuable to." No - take a class in evolution theory, MIT has a bunch. About the second part: of course it is a gross oversimplification, but I still think you can not simply judge the past by today's standards. How many of those classes have you taken yourself? Any precise data points to state, or just a vague feeling of injustice? I am actually interested in learning more about the reasons. I tried to find information on why women were not allowed to study at universities, but couldn't find any. But what if there are some? For example maybe risk of death was too high for women (childbirth and all), so it was too expensive to let them study? Reasons like that wouldn't apply in today's society - healthcare and survival during pregnancy is way better, and there is much more surplus money. But you can not transfer our situation to the past. I think I read about some parts of Africa recently that girls can't study there because it is too expensive. Of course, assuming the risk was a reason (I am just guessing), it was not fair. But I wouldn't call it evil discrimination, either.

wpietri 12y ago
>No - take a class in evolution theory, MIT has a bunch. Ah, the fallacious appeal to nature, a classic logical error. What is natural tells us nothing about what is right. Violence, for example, is quite natural, but it is wrong. Sickness and death are natural, but a large part of human effort is spent fighting that. > I still think you can not simply judge the past by today's standards. I'm not. I'm pointing out that the problems of today are rooted in a three fucking thousand year history. That people who supposedly "see sexism in everything" today have reasonable grounds to suspect that that systemic gender discrimination didn't just disappear yesterday afternoon. And by implication, that people who continually demand proof of sexism over and over are ignorant, often willfully, of the historical context. > Any precise data points to state, or just a vague feeling of injustice? It is not my job to spoon-feed you. It is not my job to cure your ignorance. It's your job. All I'm saying is that your ignorance is so obvious, so immense, that it means your half-assed speculation (in which you persist) is not worth discussing. It is, in Pauli's memorable phrase, not even wrong.
- facepalm 12y ago
  "What is natural tells us nothing about what is right." I wasn't talking about what was right, just about what is driving human behavior. You are free to believe women are not more valuable than men. But if you don't pursue wombs enough, your genes and your attitude will not make it into the next generation. That is not a tragedy, but it results in men valuing wombs being the majority. Do you like sex? Would you rather have sex with a human or with a goat? Would you say that is merely a cultural issue, and people could be retrained to prefer sex with goats? Would you say those preferences are merely a cultural issue? "All I'm saying is that your ignorance is so obvious" Well you haven't convinced me of your authority. You didn't even provide a single example. Don't forget that men's lives were different in the past, too. Sure you can point out hardship for women, but without comparing to the hardships of men it is meaningless. For one thing, it seems to me a lot of effort was spent in the past to protect women (shield them from war and hard labor). Sure there were downsides, too, but it doesn't seem obvious that society just despised women.
  - wpietri 12y ago
    > You are free to believe women are not more valuable than men. But if you don't pursue wombs enough, your genes and your attitude will not make it into the next generation. That is not a tragedy, but it results in men valuing wombs being the majority. Again, this is more naturalistic fallacy nonsense. The objective facts about our evolutionary history do not in any way justify behaviors for conscious individuals. Evolutionarily, I am driven to feed myself when hungry, but if I steal somebody's food, that's still a crime. Evolutionarily I have a predisposition to violence, but if I hurt or kill somebody, that's still wrong. The evolutionary history provides historical reasons for the systemic oppression of women, but it does not justify it. It is still wrong, and it should still be fought in the same way that theft, assault, and murder are wrong. > Well you haven't convinced me of your authority. So? That's entitled bullshit. I don't have to explain things to you until you're convinced. If you want to be taken seriously enough to get an explanation, you have to convince others that you're worth their time.
    - facepalm 12y ago

wpietri 12y ago

>No - take a class in evolution theory, MIT has a bunch. Ah, the fallacious appeal to nature, a classic logical error. What is natural tells us nothing about what is right. Violence, for example, is quite natural, but it is wrong. Sickness and death are natural, but a large part of human effort is spent fighting that. > I still think you can not simply judge the past by today's standards. I'm not. I'm pointing out that the problems of today are rooted in a three fucking thousand year history. That people who supposedly "see sexism in everything" today have reasonable grounds to suspect that that systemic gender discrimination didn't just disappear yesterday afternoon. And by implication, that people who continually demand proof of sexism over and over are ignorant, often willfully, of the historical context. > Any precise data points to state, or just a vague feeling of injustice? It is not my job to spoon-feed you. It is not my job to cure your ignorance. It's your job. All I'm saying is that your ignorance is so obvious, so immense, that it means your half-assed speculation (in which you persist) is not worth discussing. It is, in Pauli's memorable phrase, not even wrong.

facepalm 12y ago
"What is natural tells us nothing about what is right." I wasn't talking about what was right, just about what is driving human behavior. You are free to believe women are not more valuable than men. But if you don't pursue wombs enough, your genes and your attitude will not make it into the next generation. That is not a tragedy, but it results in men valuing wombs being the majority. Do you like sex? Would you rather have sex with a human or with a goat? Would you say that is merely a cultural issue, and people could be retrained to prefer sex with goats? Would you say those preferences are merely a cultural issue? "All I'm saying is that your ignorance is so obvious" Well you haven't convinced me of your authority. You didn't even provide a single example. Don't forget that men's lives were different in the past, too. Sure you can point out hardship for women, but without comparing to the hardships of men it is meaningless. For one thing, it seems to me a lot of effort was spent in the past to protect women (shield them from war and hard labor). Sure there were downsides, too, but it doesn't seem obvious that society just despised women.
- wpietri 12y ago
  > You are free to believe women are not more valuable than men. But if you don't pursue wombs enough, your genes and your attitude will not make it into the next generation. That is not a tragedy, but it results in men valuing wombs being the majority. Again, this is more naturalistic fallacy nonsense. The objective facts about our evolutionary history do not in any way justify behaviors for conscious individuals. Evolutionarily, I am driven to feed myself when hungry, but if I steal somebody's food, that's still a crime. Evolutionarily I have a predisposition to violence, but if I hurt or kill somebody, that's still wrong. The evolutionary history provides historical reasons for the systemic oppression of women, but it does not justify it. It is still wrong, and it should still be fought in the same way that theft, assault, and murder are wrong. > Well you haven't convinced me of your authority. So? That's entitled bullshit. I don't have to explain things to you until you're convinced. If you want to be taken seriously enough to get an explanation, you have to convince others that you're worth their time.
  - facepalm 12y ago