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(Disclaimer: I'm an openly gay man working in technology). A part of me dislikes how Alan Turing was given a pardon and apology. It's like they said it was wro

by rmc 12y ago

(Disclaimer: I'm an openly gay man working in technology). A part of me dislikes how Alan Turing was given a pardon and apology. It's like they said it was wrong to persecute a gay man for being gay, but only if you help invent the computer and help defeat the Nazis. What about all the other gay men persecuted under the same law? Why do they not get a pardon/apology? Do we have to help stop evil genocidal dictators before we get the same respect?

parenthesis 12y ago
As a Scot born in the late 70s (I mention my vintage as the early 80s probably seems ridiculously long ago to younger people here), I was somewhat shocked to discover that whilst male homosexual acts were decriminalised (to an extent) in 1967 in England and Wales, this did not occur in Scotland until 1980 or in Northern Ireland until 1982. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_Offences_Act_1967 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_Offences_Act_1967
- rmc 12y ago
  Northern Ireland is a special case with many of these laws. Even now, abortion is very illegal in Northern Ireland.
barking 12y ago
So the government apologises to someone on the back of a campaign and you become offended because you're not getting the same respect? (Nothing in this post is untrue)
- DanBC 12y ago
  It's a reasonable question to ask about the other gay men who were imprisoned or chemically castrated or otherwise persecuted but who are ignored by the various apologies and pardons.
  - barking 12y ago
    What's wrong with dealing with things on a case by case basis? Every case on its merits. If a man is imprisoned for having sex with another gay man that's one thing. If it's for having sex with a rent boy that's another.
    - DanBC 12y ago
      i) why should all those individuals have to campaign for individual pardons? Why not just issue a mass pardon? I'm not sure why you think male prostitutes are relevant. Prostitution is not illegal in England. (Although the law is complicated). If you're saying that men who have sex with children should not be pardoned: that's fucking obvious; so obvious. I didn't bother to mention it.
      - barking 12y ago
        Are you including all men convicted after being apprehended engaging in sexual activity in public toilets or in public parks (e.g. hampstead heath)? Should they all be included in your mass pardon? Is it fucking obvious?
        Energy1 12y ago
        We can tailor the point being made to your nit-picking: for starters, how about men who were persecuted for having sex in the privacy of their own house, excluding those who were convicted for deeds that are still considered immoral?
        barking 12y ago
        Can you name anyone who fits this category?
        vertex-four 12y ago
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Wildeblood http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Wildeblood Have one who was prosecuted simply for gay sex. According to the organisation Stonewall, there's thousands more - although obviously, there's not going to be a pre-made list somewhere, you'd have to go over court records.
baudehlo 12y ago
This is the reason JGC doesn't support the idea of a pardon for just Turing. If a pardon is to happen, it has to be applied to all gays persecuted during that time period.
- amouat 12y ago
  I agree, but Turing was pardoned and it was not universally applied: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-25495315 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-25495315
philwelch 12y ago
I think it's worth looking at the other way; obviously this kind of treatment is wrong when you apply it to anyone, but it is even worse when you apply it to one of the 5-10 most important and accomplished people your nation ever has and probably ever will produce.
nl 12y ago
Initially I agreed with what you say here. After some thought, one aspect came up that I'd be interested in your views about: It's like they said it was wrong to persecute a gay man for being gay, but only if you help invent the computer and help defeat the Nazis. What about all the other gay men persecuted under the same law? What you say here is so obviously right that is is difficult to argue with. Maybe pardoning Turing is a necessary first step to see that everyone deserves similar treatment? (Non-gay, white male. Not sure it matters in this response.)
- rmc 12y ago
  > Maybe pardoning Turing is a necessary first step to see that everyone deserves similar treatment? Perhaps. But I haven't seen any moves to pardon all the other people as well. And the cynic in me things it won't happen.
  - nl 12y ago
    My suspicion is that pardons don't miraculously happen. I suspect it happens because of the hard work and passion of people who want to make a difference.
    - DanBC 12y ago
      The group of people who would campaign for pardons largely overlaps with the group of people campaigning for equal treatment under today's laws. (Same age of consent was law in England & Wales in 2001; 2009! for Northern Ireland; protections for discrimination - partial since 2003, full since 2010; gay marriage since 2014, civil partnership since 2005). There's only so much you can campaign on. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_the_United_Kingdom http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_the_United_Kingd...
- DanBC 12y ago
  One of the reasons the apology and pardon were delayed for so long is because some of those very many gay men are still alive and the government didn't want to open themselves to compensation claims. As time goes by, and those men die, the pressure for an apology drops but the possibility increases. I hope campaigners do keep the pressure on.

by rmc 12y ago

parenthesis 12y ago

As a Scot born in the late 70s (I mention my vintage as the early 80s probably seems ridiculously long ago to younger people here), I was somewhat shocked to discover that whilst male homosexual acts were decriminalised (to an extent) in 1967 in England and Wales, this did not occur in Scotland until 1980 or in Northern Ireland until 1982. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_Offences_Act_1967 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_Offences_Act_1967

rmc 12y ago
Northern Ireland is a special case with many of these laws. Even now, abortion is very illegal in Northern Ireland.

barking 12y ago

So the government apologises to someone on the back of a campaign and you become offended because you're not getting the same respect? (Nothing in this post is untrue)

DanBC 12y ago
It's a reasonable question to ask about the other gay men who were imprisoned or chemically castrated or otherwise persecuted but who are ignored by the various apologies and pardons.
- barking 12y ago
  What's wrong with dealing with things on a case by case basis? Every case on its merits. If a man is imprisoned for having sex with another gay man that's one thing. If it's for having sex with a rent boy that's another.
  - DanBC 12y ago
    i) why should all those individuals have to campaign for individual pardons? Why not just issue a mass pardon? I'm not sure why you think male prostitutes are relevant. Prostitution is not illegal in England. (Although the law is complicated). If you're saying that men who have sex with children should not be pardoned: that's fucking obvious; so obvious. I didn't bother to mention it.
    - barking 12y ago
      Are you including all men convicted after being apprehended engaging in sexual activity in public toilets or in public parks (e.g. hampstead heath)? Should they all be included in your mass pardon? Is it fucking obvious?
      - Energy1 12y ago
        We can tailor the point being made to your nit-picking: for starters, how about men who were persecuted for having sex in the privacy of their own house, excluding those who were convicted for deeds that are still considered immoral?
        barking 12y ago
        Can you name anyone who fits this category?
        vertex-four 12y ago
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Wildeblood http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Wildeblood Have one who was prosecuted simply for gay sex. According to the organisation Stonewall, there's thousands more - although obviously, there's not going to be a pre-made list somewhere, you'd have to go over court records.

baudehlo 12y ago

This is the reason JGC doesn't support the idea of a pardon for just Turing. If a pardon is to happen, it has to be applied to all gays persecuted during that time period.

amouat 12y ago
I agree, but Turing was pardoned and it was not universally applied: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-25495315 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-25495315

philwelch 12y ago

I think it's worth looking at the other way; obviously this kind of treatment is wrong when you apply it to anyone, but it is even worse when you apply it to one of the 5-10 most important and accomplished people your nation ever has and probably ever will produce.

nl 12y ago

Initially I agreed with what you say here. After some thought, one aspect came up that I'd be interested in your views about: It's like they said it was wrong to persecute a gay man for being gay, but only if you help invent the computer and help defeat the Nazis. What about all the other gay men persecuted under the same law? What you say here is so obviously right that is is difficult to argue with. Maybe pardoning Turing is a necessary first step to see that everyone deserves similar treatment? (Non-gay, white male. Not sure it matters in this response.)

rmc 12y ago
> Maybe pardoning Turing is a necessary first step to see that everyone deserves similar treatment? Perhaps. But I haven't seen any moves to pardon all the other people as well. And the cynic in me things it won't happen.
- nl 12y ago
  My suspicion is that pardons don't miraculously happen. I suspect it happens because of the hard work and passion of people who want to make a difference.
  - DanBC 12y ago
    The group of people who would campaign for pardons largely overlaps with the group of people campaigning for equal treatment under today's laws. (Same age of consent was law in England & Wales in 2001; 2009! for Northern Ireland; protections for discrimination - partial since 2003, full since 2010; gay marriage since 2014, civil partnership since 2005). There's only so much you can campaign on. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_the_United_Kingdom http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_the_United_Kingd...
DanBC 12y ago
One of the reasons the apology and pardon were delayed for so long is because some of those very many gay men are still alive and the government didn't want to open themselves to compensation claims. As time goes by, and those men die, the pressure for an apology drops but the possibility increases. I hope campaigners do keep the pressure on.