4 ms·

The Social Club is now lodged in an old firehouse built in 1937, and has a theater, classrooms, bars, art gallery, and adjoining restaurant [...] Mannheimer cre

by rquantz 12y ago

The Social Club is now lodged in an old firehouse built in 1937, and has a theater, classrooms, bars, art gallery, and adjoining restaurant [...] Mannheimer created something that would have taken the rest his life and $300 million to complete if he'd stayed in New York. It took him seven years and $12 million. Ok, I haven't seen Mannheimer's place, but something that matches this description just opened up across the street from me in Bushwick, Brooklyn. I guarantee that the hipsters who opened it didn't have a budget greater than $12 million, and nobody was thinking about this neighborhood more than a few years ago. In other words, while New York can be a hard place, things still happen here, artists still live here and produce amazing work, and it's hard to imagine there's a better place for performing artists to work anywhere in the US. For some reason, there has been a move recently to declare the big coastal cities impossible to live in, yet they remain great places to live, which is why so many people want to live here. On the other hand, if you're going to start a company and have an extremely limited budget, by all means do it somewhere other than NYC or SV. Artists need an audience. A tech company just needs an internet connection. Edit: also, I want to address this quote: "In the world of hipsters, is there anything more ironic than coming to live in Des Moines, as opposed to living in Brooklyn?" Anyone still talking about irony with regards to hipsters clearly has no idea what the kids in Bushwick are doing. These are the most earnest people you can imagine.

dr_ 12y ago
A newly established startup that just needs an Internet connection maybe could be created anywhere - but a company, which at some point may want to bring in more seasoned talent as it grows, is probably better off near the coastal areas, with a few exceptions.
- arbuge 12y ago
  That view is still too limited in my opinion. There are massive companies coast to coast in the USA, and they seem to have no problem finding talent (to the extent that of course they do - who doesn't? - but it's survivable). Dallas for example has a large concentration of Fortune 500 companies, which is about as "grown" as you can get.
  - mentat 12y ago
    There are many "enterprise" programmers who don't know how to program. These are not the people who are going to scale your startup. If you think they are, you're going to probably go out of business finding out the cost of B and C players.
    - arbuge 12y ago
      Well, we do have some top-notch coders and engineers in the Dallas area, just as in any major metropolitan area... they're not all in the Valley you know.
- briandear 12y ago
  "Bring in seasoned talent.." All seasoned talent needs is an Internet connection. A successful company doesn't require a ping pong table. Basecamp makes more money each year than most startups ever will and they're entirely remote. I love in the south of France and work just fine without having to go to company HQ in New York. The only folks working in the office are just the sales guys and even they could do their work just fine from home if they were so inclined. Location is only relevant if you need an address to impress a particularly unelightened investor. The myth that the talent is only in San Fran or NYC is getting played out. I have several devs that work for me that live in Portland, Jacksonville, Atlanta, Belgrade-- folks all over the place and they're "top tier" talent. In fact I would argue that it's harder to recruit talent in NYC and San Fran.. Real wages are comparatively lower than pretty much anywhere else in the country and you're competing against places like Google, Twitter, Apple. Why would a Dev come work for your (figuratively) rinky-dink startup for likely less money and likely worthless equity (statistically speaking) when they could walk down the street and work for any number of successful companies? However if I lived in a place like Grand Rapids, your startup might be an attractive choice.. And it would even save you money: you can pay the same salary but you'd pay less for their health insurance and you could save on the extra office space. You could also save on the silliness like a "beer fridge" or whatever else is the latest trend in an attempt to be a great place to work. My criteria for a great place to work: competent product managers, an interesting product, a good salary, equity that isn't insulting, proper vacation time and other folks working with me that value high quality code. That's pretty much it. Your awesome office space is a waste of money and doesn't attract "good" developers -- a good dev is not going to sign up with you because of office space; those other elements must be there. Anyone that places a value of the office space over the value of those other things is an idiot. When I did work in an office in New York, I enjoyed my time the most with a company that had no windows, was in a cramped, shared space with barely enough room for a laptop, let alone a massive desk for my 27" monitor much more than the hip place with great coffee, a ping ping table and catered lunches because of the work we were doing and the people I had to work with. Talent should be location irrelevant for an Internet company. Actually, unless you have a warehouse or must meet customers in person or sell retail (or build a physical product,) the entire concept of an "office" is about as relevant as a VCR.
  - 12y ago
couchand 12y ago
Clearly you haven't seen the Des Moines Social Club, or you're massively underestimating the cost of real estate in New York City. The DMSC is 37,000 square feet of finished gallery, restaurant, and theater space. Conservatively estimating a lease at $15 net-net for unfinished warehouse space in Bushwick you're looking at 6 million dollars a year to rent, plus the cost of renovations. The Des Moines Social Club owns their building. I'm not saying there aren't advantages to living on the coasts - I'm a Des Moines native who moved to New York. But please stop talking out of your ass about something you're so clearly uninformed on.
- rquantz 12y ago
  please stop talking out of your ass about something you're so clearly uninformed on. Nice. I did say I haven't seen it. I certainly won't claim that exactly the same thing opened up across the street from me. They don't own the building. I'm sure they're not paying 6 million a year rent though. They have performance space, gallery space, yoga and other classes, and a restaurant/bar. Again, my point is not that you can't get cheaper real estate elsewhere, but the portrait of New York as a place where nothing can be accomplished unless you're super rich is not accurate. That's not coming out of my ass.
  - couchand 12y ago
    So you're making an apples-to-oranges comparison based on your intuition? Thanks for raising the bar of the conversation here.
    - rquantz 12y ago
      I don't understand your hostility. In this article and many others recently, there is an implication that you can't do anything big in NYC anymore, especially in the arts. This is patently untrue. That, and only that, is what I'm responding to. The comparison with the Des Moines Social Club was not based on intuition, it was based on the description in the article. Edit: as far as the level of conversation goes, you're the one who brought up my ass.
ritchiea 12y ago
Really? The cost of real estate in Bushwick has gone through the roof over the last 10 yeas and particularly in the last 5. When I moved to Bushwick 6 years ago my the rent for my 3 bedroom apartment was 1800, there were other options in that range, as well as similarly priced apartments in Crown Heights. Look at the prices today and the rents in those areas have almost doubled. The New York real estate market is insane right now and people are already investing in areas like East New York hoping that the gentrification and rising rents keep moving eastward. Commercial rent is less expensive than residential and people do great things in NYC but a giant space in Bushwick is going to be very expensive right now and you're going to have to be good at turning a profit to keep the lights on. That said I'm really curious what just opened up in Bushwick that matches the description of the social club in the article.

by rquantz 12y ago

dr_ 12y ago

A newly established startup that just needs an Internet connection maybe could be created anywhere - but a company, which at some point may want to bring in more seasoned talent as it grows, is probably better off near the coastal areas, with a few exceptions.

arbuge 12y ago
That view is still too limited in my opinion. There are massive companies coast to coast in the USA, and they seem to have no problem finding talent (to the extent that of course they do - who doesn't? - but it's survivable). Dallas for example has a large concentration of Fortune 500 companies, which is about as "grown" as you can get.
- mentat 12y ago
  There are many "enterprise" programmers who don't know how to program. These are not the people who are going to scale your startup. If you think they are, you're going to probably go out of business finding out the cost of B and C players.
  - arbuge 12y ago
    Well, we do have some top-notch coders and engineers in the Dallas area, just as in any major metropolitan area... they're not all in the Valley you know.
briandear 12y ago
"Bring in seasoned talent.." All seasoned talent needs is an Internet connection. A successful company doesn't require a ping pong table. Basecamp makes more money each year than most startups ever will and they're entirely remote. I love in the south of France and work just fine without having to go to company HQ in New York. The only folks working in the office are just the sales guys and even they could do their work just fine from home if they were so inclined. Location is only relevant if you need an address to impress a particularly unelightened investor. The myth that the talent is only in San Fran or NYC is getting played out. I have several devs that work for me that live in Portland, Jacksonville, Atlanta, Belgrade-- folks all over the place and they're "top tier" talent. In fact I would argue that it's harder to recruit talent in NYC and San Fran.. Real wages are comparatively lower than pretty much anywhere else in the country and you're competing against places like Google, Twitter, Apple. Why would a Dev come work for your (figuratively) rinky-dink startup for likely less money and likely worthless equity (statistically speaking) when they could walk down the street and work for any number of successful companies? However if I lived in a place like Grand Rapids, your startup might be an attractive choice.. And it would even save you money: you can pay the same salary but you'd pay less for their health insurance and you could save on the extra office space. You could also save on the silliness like a "beer fridge" or whatever else is the latest trend in an attempt to be a great place to work. My criteria for a great place to work: competent product managers, an interesting product, a good salary, equity that isn't insulting, proper vacation time and other folks working with me that value high quality code. That's pretty much it. Your awesome office space is a waste of money and doesn't attract "good" developers -- a good dev is not going to sign up with you because of office space; those other elements must be there. Anyone that places a value of the office space over the value of those other things is an idiot. When I did work in an office in New York, I enjoyed my time the most with a company that had no windows, was in a cramped, shared space with barely enough room for a laptop, let alone a massive desk for my 27" monitor much more than the hip place with great coffee, a ping ping table and catered lunches because of the work we were doing and the people I had to work with. Talent should be location irrelevant for an Internet company. Actually, unless you have a warehouse or must meet customers in person or sell retail (or build a physical product,) the entire concept of an "office" is about as relevant as a VCR.
- 12y ago

couchand 12y ago

Clearly you haven't seen the Des Moines Social Club, or you're massively underestimating the cost of real estate in New York City. The DMSC is 37,000 square feet of finished gallery, restaurant, and theater space. Conservatively estimating a lease at $15 net-net for unfinished warehouse space in Bushwick you're looking at 6 million dollars a year to rent, plus the cost of renovations. The Des Moines Social Club owns their building. I'm not saying there aren't advantages to living on the coasts - I'm a Des Moines native who moved to New York. But please stop talking out of your ass about something you're so clearly uninformed on.

rquantz 12y ago
please stop talking out of your ass about something you're so clearly uninformed on. Nice. I did say I haven't seen it. I certainly won't claim that exactly the same thing opened up across the street from me. They don't own the building. I'm sure they're not paying 6 million a year rent though. They have performance space, gallery space, yoga and other classes, and a restaurant/bar. Again, my point is not that you can't get cheaper real estate elsewhere, but the portrait of New York as a place where nothing can be accomplished unless you're super rich is not accurate. That's not coming out of my ass.
- couchand 12y ago
  So you're making an apples-to-oranges comparison based on your intuition? Thanks for raising the bar of the conversation here.
  - rquantz 12y ago
    I don't understand your hostility. In this article and many others recently, there is an implication that you can't do anything big in NYC anymore, especially in the arts. This is patently untrue. That, and only that, is what I'm responding to. The comparison with the Des Moines Social Club was not based on intuition, it was based on the description in the article. Edit: as far as the level of conversation goes, you're the one who brought up my ass.

ritchiea 12y ago

Really? The cost of real estate in Bushwick has gone through the roof over the last 10 yeas and particularly in the last 5. When I moved to Bushwick 6 years ago my the rent for my 3 bedroom apartment was 1800, there were other options in that range, as well as similarly priced apartments in Crown Heights. Look at the prices today and the rents in those areas have almost doubled. The New York real estate market is insane right now and people are already investing in areas like East New York hoping that the gentrification and rising rents keep moving eastward. Commercial rent is less expensive than residential and people do great things in NYC but a giant space in Bushwick is going to be very expensive right now and you're going to have to be good at turning a profit to keep the lights on. That said I'm really curious what just opened up in Bushwick that matches the description of the social club in the article.