4 ms·

The article is good, but I was bothered by the post title. In this case, "science-based" seems to mean that the author merely presented her claims with a logica

by eel 12y ago

The article is good, but I was bothered by the post title. In this case, "science-based" seems to mean that the author merely presented her claims with a logical argument. An example from the article: But it’s not a good idea to use a spray oil, no matter what oil it’s made with, because of its additives. You’re doing chemistry here. If you want good results, use pure ingredients. It's a compelling argument, but it's not science-based. Where is the evidence that additives affect the seasoning or polymerization? It could very well be that additives have no effect, or more likely that it depends on the type of additive. If this was the only example, that would be fine, but the blog post is full of examples like this. There is no citation of any scientific source anywhere in the article! If you are writing articles than claim to be science-based, you really should link or cite actual scientific literature. (Or run your own experiments!)

JohnTHaller 12y ago
Introducing unknown variables (additives) when you don't need to doesn't make sense if you're treating this as lab experiment. Why complicate the process for no reason?
- taeric 12y ago
  Isn't that the point, though. It isn't "complicating for no reason," it is "running an experiment to see if it matters." Ruling out some experiments to try is often necessary, because time. However, it is far preferable to use prior evidence to rule them out, not speculation. No matter how logical it may be.
  - JohnTHaller 12y ago
    It's still complicating it for no reason. It's trivially easy to buy the proper oil and not use a spray oil with random stuff added to it to keep it spray-able. It's like not washing your test tubes out before conducting an experiment. It introduces additional variables and complexity for no good reason. Do you really expect the author to test for every single random additive from every single random spray oil producer and see if it affects the process? It's a waste of time when the proper process is easy... just use real unadulterated oil.
    - taeric 12y ago
      Meh, a simple "we already had a full docket to test with our main goals and didn't want to allocate the time to try any spray oils" is more than adequate. And you are doing a bit of goal post shifting. Nobody is asking to try all ingredients and isolate everything. But it was never even established that a spray oil wouldn't work. Just speculation as to why it wouldn't. I will throw out that, for myself, I think the majority of the effort that most people go through with their cast irons is for cosmetic purposes and failing to realize that we use much milder soaps today than we used to. If you want a decently seasoned cast iron skillet, just commit to using it consistently. Will it be pretty? Probably not. But it will work just fine.
      - JohnTHaller 12y ago
        > Meh, a simple "we already had a full docket to test with our main goals and didn't want to allocate the time to try any spray oils" is more than adequate. The thing is, there's not one 'spray oil additive' that everyone uses they could even test. They could just say: "Spray oils use additives that could complicate this process and each spray oil is different. We didn't test them and don't recommend that you use them. Using real, unadulterated oil is simple, proven, and effective." I can't comment on the effectiveness of the overall process of seasoning a skillet, nor was I.
        taeric 12y ago
        It doesn't matter that there are multiple additives. It hasn't been established that any additives affect things. (Or, again, if it has been established, cite.) That is, you are commenting on the process. Specifically, you are saying that spray oils are bad for it. And then giving a quick (and appealing) argument for it. However, the question is when and how was this established.
        JohnTHaller 12y ago
        Incorrect. I said specifically that spray oils 'could' complicate the process and that they didn't test for it. That's all. You're reading the rest into it yourself. I never once said that additives affect things. Additives are a random addition that serve no purpose in the process of seasoning a cast iron pan. They didn't test for throwing a handful of salt or baking soda in either. Nor should they. There's no need.
- rhizome 12y ago
  Isn't that called falsifiability?
raverbashing 12y ago
The only thing that can be said when using a generic term as "additive" is: it depends Name the substance and you can get a better answer
domdip 12y ago
Yeah, the speculation that nitrates in bacon fat would somehow be unhealthy was a bit weird too.
Spooky23 12y ago
Try it sometime... If you use Pam or other spray oil, there are usually soy or other additives that leave a sticky shell on your pan. If you want to experiment on your own, buy a new, cheap pan and fry up some eggs 4-5 times. You'll see a brown residue on the sides of the pan -- that the stuff.
- dpark 12y ago
  The brown residue is most likely oil that's partially burned on (or partially polymerized to use the article's term). You can get this residue from any fat. You're just more likely to see it with spray oils because the spray is not precise so you get overspray in undesired areas.
  - Spooky23 12y ago
    No, that's different. Cooking sprays usually include Soy lecithin, which can cook on (if you don't wash it off) and forms a sticky brown residue. The polymerized oil is slippery. The residue issue is more pronounced in thick/dark pans like cast iron that retain heat for a long time -- unless you clean them immediately, the residue cooks on. If you cook some eggs, eat, and go back to clean your cast-iron pan, the oil will have been cooked on. The solution for this use case is to use something like the "Misto", which is a spray pump that lets you spray plain oil on a pan.
    - dpark 12y ago
      If you're not cleaning off the overspray, you'll definitely get sticky brown residue from oil. Oil is only slippery after it's fully polymerized. If it's partially polymerized, it's a sticky mess. Oil on the sides of the pan will generally not fully polymerize without a cycle in the oven because there isn't enough heat being applied. The lecithin might make it worse, though.
mtdewcmu 12y ago
I consider it science-based. She researched the choice of oil based on the underlying polymer chemistry and gave a taste of that research. The article also contains a lot of opinions that are not, or probably not, based on science. But "science-based" is sort of like "based on a true story": some liberties are acceptable. Moreover, I think the article is fairly scientific in spirit. When she had to make judgment calls, she described how and why she chose the option she did. A scientific research article doesn't have to settle every question it raises and do every possible experiment. It just needs to be clear about what it did and didn't do.
nickbauman 12y ago
Which is to say the irony is the term "science-based" is something meant for the layman. To be scientific, you either present the data directly or "cite the article" on which you base your claims. The standards applied to the data and the citation is extremely high and uniform. That's the whole reason why it succeeds as ... science.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]

by eel 12y ago

JohnTHaller 12y ago

Introducing unknown variables (additives) when you don't need to doesn't make sense if you're treating this as lab experiment. Why complicate the process for no reason?

taeric 12y ago
Isn't that the point, though. It isn't "complicating for no reason," it is "running an experiment to see if it matters." Ruling out some experiments to try is often necessary, because time. However, it is far preferable to use prior evidence to rule them out, not speculation. No matter how logical it may be.
- JohnTHaller 12y ago
  It's still complicating it for no reason. It's trivially easy to buy the proper oil and not use a spray oil with random stuff added to it to keep it spray-able. It's like not washing your test tubes out before conducting an experiment. It introduces additional variables and complexity for no good reason. Do you really expect the author to test for every single random additive from every single random spray oil producer and see if it affects the process? It's a waste of time when the proper process is easy... just use real unadulterated oil.
  - taeric 12y ago
    Meh, a simple "we already had a full docket to test with our main goals and didn't want to allocate the time to try any spray oils" is more than adequate. And you are doing a bit of goal post shifting. Nobody is asking to try all ingredients and isolate everything. But it was never even established that a spray oil wouldn't work. Just speculation as to why it wouldn't. I will throw out that, for myself, I think the majority of the effort that most people go through with their cast irons is for cosmetic purposes and failing to realize that we use much milder soaps today than we used to. If you want a decently seasoned cast iron skillet, just commit to using it consistently. Will it be pretty? Probably not. But it will work just fine.
    - JohnTHaller 12y ago
      > Meh, a simple "we already had a full docket to test with our main goals and didn't want to allocate the time to try any spray oils" is more than adequate. The thing is, there's not one 'spray oil additive' that everyone uses they could even test. They could just say: "Spray oils use additives that could complicate this process and each spray oil is different. We didn't test them and don't recommend that you use them. Using real, unadulterated oil is simple, proven, and effective." I can't comment on the effectiveness of the overall process of seasoning a skillet, nor was I.
      - taeric 12y ago
        It doesn't matter that there are multiple additives. It hasn't been established that any additives affect things. (Or, again, if it has been established, cite.) That is, you are commenting on the process. Specifically, you are saying that spray oils are bad for it. And then giving a quick (and appealing) argument for it. However, the question is when and how was this established.
        JohnTHaller 12y ago
        Incorrect. I said specifically that spray oils 'could' complicate the process and that they didn't test for it. That's all. You're reading the rest into it yourself. I never once said that additives affect things. Additives are a random addition that serve no purpose in the process of seasoning a cast iron pan. They didn't test for throwing a handful of salt or baking soda in either. Nor should they. There's no need.
rhizome 12y ago
Isn't that called falsifiability?

raverbashing 12y ago

The only thing that can be said when using a generic term as "additive" is: it depends Name the substance and you can get a better answer

domdip 12y ago

Yeah, the speculation that nitrates in bacon fat would somehow be unhealthy was a bit weird too.

Spooky23 12y ago

Try it sometime... If you use Pam or other spray oil, there are usually soy or other additives that leave a sticky shell on your pan. If you want to experiment on your own, buy a new, cheap pan and fry up some eggs 4-5 times. You'll see a brown residue on the sides of the pan -- that the stuff.

dpark 12y ago
The brown residue is most likely oil that's partially burned on (or partially polymerized to use the article's term). You can get this residue from any fat. You're just more likely to see it with spray oils because the spray is not precise so you get overspray in undesired areas.
- Spooky23 12y ago
  No, that's different. Cooking sprays usually include Soy lecithin, which can cook on (if you don't wash it off) and forms a sticky brown residue. The polymerized oil is slippery. The residue issue is more pronounced in thick/dark pans like cast iron that retain heat for a long time -- unless you clean them immediately, the residue cooks on. If you cook some eggs, eat, and go back to clean your cast-iron pan, the oil will have been cooked on. The solution for this use case is to use something like the "Misto", which is a spray pump that lets you spray plain oil on a pan.
  - dpark 12y ago
    If you're not cleaning off the overspray, you'll definitely get sticky brown residue from oil. Oil is only slippery after it's fully polymerized. If it's partially polymerized, it's a sticky mess. Oil on the sides of the pan will generally not fully polymerize without a cycle in the oven because there isn't enough heat being applied. The lecithin might make it worse, though.

mtdewcmu 12y ago

I consider it science-based. She researched the choice of oil based on the underlying polymer chemistry and gave a taste of that research. The article also contains a lot of opinions that are not, or probably not, based on science. But "science-based" is sort of like "based on a true story": some liberties are acceptable. Moreover, I think the article is fairly scientific in spirit. When she had to make judgment calls, she described how and why she chose the option she did. A scientific research article doesn't have to settle every question it raises and do every possible experiment. It just needs to be clear about what it did and didn't do.

nickbauman 12y ago

Which is to say the irony is the term "science-based" is something meant for the layman. To be scientific, you either present the data directly or "cite the article" on which you base your claims. The standards applied to the data and the citation is extremely high and uniform. That's the whole reason why it succeeds as ... science.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]